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Ignition woes
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4100
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kev

Coil voltage dropping to 10v while cranking is fine: below are a couple of extracts from the crypton manual, you only need a voltmeter to complete them.




Cheers Dave
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Ashley



Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 1426
Location: Near Stroud, Glos

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This might amuse.

http://kda132.com/pdfs/technical/electrics/Ignition_Coils_Test.pdf

Having checked with an expert I'm told that old engines need as low a primary to secondary ratio as possible. This produces a longer spark that better suits low compression ratios and poor combustion chambers.
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kevin2306



Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1359
Location: nr Llangollen, north wales

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

done a bit more testing this afternoon.
I have come to the decision that the electronic unit has passed on. everything else seems ok unpto and including the discharge from the coil to the dizzy cap. It is after that where the problem lies.
so, 2 solutions as i see it
1. speak with distributor doctor and buy a dizzy with standard points set up
2. speak with the distributor doctor and buy a dizzy with electronic ignition fitted.
must say, im leaning toward getting back to standard?

Thoughts?

Kev
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4100
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kev

If you are confident to drive the car to my place, we can stick it on the Crypton scope and see what is going on?

Otherwise I would go back to basics, take the electronic ignition out and start from scratch.
Cheers

Dave
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kevin2306



Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1359
Location: nr Llangollen, north wales

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ukdave2002 wrote:
Kev

If you are confident to drive the car to my place, we can stick it on the Crypton scope and see what is going on?

Otherwise I would go back to basics, take the electronic ignition out and start from scratch.
Cheers

Dave


wont fire up dave.
been looking at the prices for each set up

seems if i go back to standard, I would need a lucas 25d4 distributor which are quite common, just need a decent source..hopefully Martin the distributor doctor can help.
if I can get it fitted and running dave, I wouldnt mind a hand setting things up properly?

Kev
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kevin2306



Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1359
Location: nr Llangollen, north wales

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

also seems that a lucas 45d4 will fit, any good sources out there?
loads for sale but I wonder what the quality is like

Kev
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ka



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 600
Location: Orkney.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good technical reply above.
One of the many Mini's I owned had a ballasted system.
In effect you have a lower voltage coil, maybe even 6-9 volts, connected by two 'live' wires. Each of the wires supplying the power had an individual source. When starting the engine, one of the wires was isolated by the starter/ignition switch, supplying the full voltage to the coli, which was considerably less than the normal 14volts whilst the engine was being turned over. When the engine fired, and you release the key to normal on, then this wire was isolated, and the power supplying the coil came from the ballasted wire (when the plastic covering was removed, two wires were unravelled, one of them a special ballasted length), the 14odd volts was reduced to the coli requirement of 6-9volts.
This set-up gave full voltage on starting in the cold damp winter mornings.
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KA

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kevin2306



Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1359
Location: nr Llangollen, north wales

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, so not fixed the issue but getting closer.
The unit currently fitted is a lucas item
same as this..even the ballast resistor is the same..

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LUCAS-ELECTRONIC-DISTRIBUTOR-CONVERSION-41668A-43DE4-AVENGER-1600-1974/151253311048?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222003%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D22047%26meid%3D7329430307158867552%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D9537%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D181420258995&rt=nc

What I have decided to do is go back to a standard points set up for the summer, got a great deal on a brand new, old stock distributor. That in turn will give me a good base should i wish to insert an electronic conversion later on. only down side is the bloke ive bought it from is 79y/o and doesnt do paypal so its good old fashioned cheque, inc the long waiting time for it to clear.

Good things are worth waiting for eh

Kev
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4100
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kev

I think this is a good call as standard ignition is simpler to set up from scratch.
One thing crossed my mind; when the electronic ignition was fitted, was the ballast setup done away with? It often is. If you are still planning to use the ballast set up, I don't think you have the correct coil, from the resistance measurements you took as the coils on ballets set ups are usually less than 2 ohms, it's essential a 6v coil

The ballast resistor and the coil should be the same resistance, and with the ignition on you should have about 6v on each. At the point where the ballast resistor is connected to the coil, there should be a cable that attaches to the starter motor, so when cranking the engine you get around 9-10v on the coil. This wire is normally white with a yellow trace.

Cheers

Dave
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kevin2306



Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1359
Location: nr Llangollen, north wales

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave

I will do away with the ballast setup, interestingly, the live feed to the coil is to the negative terminal, is this a mistake by the previous owner or how it was originally? (car is negative earth)
I just need to wait for the new old stock distributor to turn up and I am sorted (hopefully).
On another forum, it is suggested that once running nicely with the points set up, I can get a quality electronic conversion that should be really stable and give decent running. Any experience out there with after market systems that fit into the housing in place of the points and condenser?

Kev
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4100
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kev

If you want to fit an electronic ignition later I'd stick to one that retains the points.

This is one that I have successfully used before, its a kit so needs 15 mins to assemble, but only costs about £12, works on 12 -ve earth , can be converted to 6v, Maplin used to sell them, but stopped recently.

Cheers

Dave
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kevin2306



Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1359
Location: nr Llangollen, north wales

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks dave

Its just another job added to the list do far, if it runs fine on the points set up then I suspect it will remain that way as I wont be doing high milages to warrant it?

Cant wait now, along with the new carb recently fitted it should be easier to set up and get running sweetly
I suspect it hasnt been running quite right since the mot, hard to tell as I hadnt driven it before but in all honestly it felt a bit wheezy, the old owner used to tow a sprite alpine caravan for summer holidays so it must have been ok power wise, wouldnt have fancied towing with it as it was to be fair
lets see eh.

Kev
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ka



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 600
Location: Orkney.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Vellaman system was the one available through Maplins. Still worth the money when sourced elsewhere.
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kevin2306



Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1359
Location: nr Llangollen, north wales

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I mentioned previously, I sourced a new old stock distributor that is pretty much an exact match for my Singer, unfortunately the seller would only accept cash on collection or a cheque. He lives too far away for collection, so cheque and wait for it to clear it had to be..not a great situation as it meant the car would be stuck in the garage and also meant I would miss a local vintage show in a week or so.
Got home today to a parcel...not ordered anything so, a bit puzzled, I opened it.
Without telling me, my old dad (a young 83y/o) had spoke with accuspark and ordered a new 25d4 electronic distributor as a stop gap until the other arrives..how cool!
So, into the garage, old unit removed along with the associated wiring. Engine turned over until the correct timing mark was indicated, new unit slotted into place and roughly lined up.
Wired up, including removing the connectors fitted and replacement ones soldered on. Vacum sealed up,key turned and....running like a new one!! so smooth. Timing light used to check stuff, bit of tuning and she seemed superb.
Set off for a test drive with RAC card and mobile phone at the ready and have to report that the car is running superbly well, very smooth drive, strong acceleration and so much more power when climbing hills.
Got home, a few small adjustments to mixture and tick-over and pulled a plug to check the colour...lovely and brown.
So, as a cheap stop-gap, I am very impressed with the accuspark unit (less than £55 delivered), not sure what they are like to live with long term but to be honest the build quality seems really good.

(a happy) Kev
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Ashley



Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 1426
Location: Near Stroud, Glos

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had lts of stuff from Accuspark including their excellent distributors that Imthink are better than original Lucas, so if you've got it going well, just leave it as it is.

Mry TR3A has a mildly tuned engine and one of their £12 ignition coils and it revs nicely round to 5,500 without missing a beat. I've had lots of problems with various Lucas copies.
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