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Ring gear
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Miken



Joined: 24 Dec 2012
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 11:16 pm    Post subject: Ring gear Reply with quote

The teeth for the starter gear on my early Morris Minor are cut directly onto the flywheel. There are a couple of areas where the teeth are worn. I have heard of people building the teeth up with weld and re-profiling which i could do, but the teeth would only be soft mild steel and I doubt it would be a very durable repair.
Does anyone know of a company that manufactures ring gears ? I could then turn a register and fit a ring gear in the usual way .
Mike
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Kenham



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 209
Location: Kent

PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 9:00 am    Post subject: Ring gear Reply with quote

Hello , F.W.Thornton .co.uk, looks like a "good start" .Another to try is Ring gears r us , although I would not use a firm with such a silly name only as a last resort. Ken
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Jim.Walker



Joined: 27 Dec 2008
Posts: 1229
Location: Chesterfield

PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Possibly re-machining the flywheel to take a shrink-fit ring gear is the best way. But machined size is fairly critical. too large and sensible heat will not expand the ring gear sufficiently and too small and the ring gear will come off. Of course too much heat will destroy the temper of the gear.
As Ford demonstrated with (I think) 105E cars many of which did shed their ring gear back in the sixties.
Jim.
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Quote from my late Dad:- You only need a woman and a car and you have all the problems you
are ever likely to want". Computers had not been invented then!
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Miken



Joined: 24 Dec 2012
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 12:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Ring gear Reply with quote

Kenham wrote:
Hello , F.W.Thornton .co.uk, looks like a "good start" .Another to try is Ring gears r us , although I would not use a firm with such a silly name only as a last resort. Ken

Thanks Ken,
Thorntons cant help. I have sent an email to "ring gears are us" Unfortunately they are in NZ so I hope they dont want to look at the flywheel first!
Mike
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goneps



Joined: 18 Jun 2013
Posts: 601
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim.Walker wrote:
Of course too much heat will destroy the temper of the gear.


I was under the impression that ring gears are heated by immersing in a hot oil bath.
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Miken



Joined: 24 Dec 2012
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is an update,
I was able to purchase a ring gear off the shelf from "Ring Gears Are Us " in New Zealand.
I would recommed them. They answered all my emails promptly, dispatched it quickly and I was able to track the parcel as it traveled around the world.
They also included dimensions for the required interferance fit so I know what diameter to turn my flywheel to (.012" .3mm).
Price was about £85 for the gear which i thought very reasonable.
Shipping was about £40 which was OK
VAT and customs duty at this end before Parcelforce UK would deliver it was another £36 which was bloody annoying.
Mike
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Old Wrench



Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 226
Location: Essex and France

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

goneps wrote:
Jim.Walker wrote:
Of course too much heat will destroy the temper of the gear.


I was under the impression that ring gears are heated by immersing in a hot oil bath.


All we used to do was to support the ring gear all the way around (to avoid droop and distortion) on firebricks and use two propane blowlamps, ensuring the flames were constantly in motion.

Never ever experienced any problems.

The Ford 105 E problem was simply very bad heat treatment.

As with so much of Ford production at the time.
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Bugly



Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 65
Location: Darwin, Australia

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

goneps wrote:
Jim.Walker wrote:
Of course too much heat will destroy the temper of the gear.


I was under the impression that ring gears are heated by immersing in a hot oil bath.


With my Morris JB van, I waited until wifie went shopping before slipping into the kitchen and preheating the gas oven to 260 degrees centigrade. I sat the flywheel on the kitchen bench on a wooden breadboard and placed the starter ring about mid-oven and turned on the fan. The ring gear was placed the right way up in the oven to fit straight on to the flywheel. After 10 minutes I donned a pair of welding gloves, took the ring from the oven, and placed it on the flywheel where it sat down perfectly on the rebated seat exactly where it was supposed to sit! Sooo easy! Within about 5-10 seconds of sitting on the colder flywheel, the ring gear cooled and contracted sufficiently to grab tight.
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Jim.Walker



Joined: 27 Dec 2008
Posts: 1229
Location: Chesterfield

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't suppose it matters much how the ring gear is heated, as long as it is evenly heated and not too hot.
However!
If anything stops it dropping into place correctly or it is dropped on reversed the only way to remove it again is to destroy it by splitting it with a cold chisel as was probably done to remove the old one.
You only get one shot!
Jim.
_________________
Quote from my late Dad:- You only need a woman and a car and you have all the problems you
are ever likely to want". Computers had not been invented then!
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Old Wrench



Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 226
Location: Essex and France

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Ring gear Reply with quote

Miken wrote:
The teeth for the starter gear on my early Morris Minor are cut directly onto the flywheel. There are a couple of areas where the teeth are worn. I have heard of people building the teeth up with weld and re-profiling which i could do, but the teeth would only be soft mild steel and I doubt it would be a very durable repair.
Mike


Just a few further thoughts on this.

It all depends what parent metal the flywheel was originally made from.

Usually, they were cast iron: however, since the ring teeth were machined directly into the metal, perhaps (big perhaps!), it was machined from a mild steel blank and the teeth hardened post machining.

Depositing hard weld metal on a worn surface is a conventional method of repair: for example, digger and earthmover buckets. It just need special filler rod.

If the original flywheel is cast iron, then big problem and I would be deeply surprised it has lasted so long!

We used to use special filler rods from Eutectic and/or Stubbs. Good old shielded arc (stick welder).

For example:

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.esab.com%2Ffrance-benelux%2Ffr%2Flogin%2Fpartner%2Fupload%2FConsumables-Earth-moving-equipment-XA00049420-2.pdf&ei=vIPBU7rVNoje7AaV3YDQDg&usg=AFQjCNFpiDM6D8Q3FZwMc3ZNJ08goXM3eA&bvm=bv.70810081,d.bGQ

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CEcQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bocworldofwelding.com.au%2Fmedia%2Fpdf%2FWELDING%2520CONSUMABLES-Hardfacing.pdf&ei=vIPBU7rVNoje7AaV3YDQDg&usg=AFQjCNFRBoQp_Q-o2NX1FASBmvOhZ7NDpA&bvm=bv.70810081,d.bGQ
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NONORT



Joined: 26 Apr 2012
Posts: 55
Location: Southampton

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If The Gear isn't to worn why not refit it in a different orientation. The worn parts of the ring would have been aligned with the compression strokes. If you rotate the flywheel to say the next set of holes the compression will be on the new part of the ring. The other thing is to check the stater motor bearing next to the Bendix unit if this is worn the gear will go out of alignment when being used. The result of this will be more wear of the ring. I had the job of finding out why a late moggy starter made a horrible noise. It was traced to one of the lugs on the motor being cracked and letting the motor move sideways thus mucking up the alignment. Hope this gives you a cheaper alternative.
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