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Double Six Misfire
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peppiB



Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 686
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ka - quite. I first met him when I stopped to aid his stricken Moggy. he said there was a noise but didn't know what it was. I started it and it was a wonder a con rod hadn't broken free as the noise was horrendous. Big ends the noisiest I have heard. he had no idea what it was and had been driving it like that for a couple of weeks apparently. A local garage did servicing on it and had put thin fully synthetic oil in. I managed to educate him in the use of 20/50 in the replacement engine. His other car at the time was a less than 3 year old Jag but it had an unsolvable electrical problem. The car had been sold new as a category X write off without warranty so after spending a substantial amount at main dealers he eventually sold it. He asked what older car he should buy as an everyday and towing car so I suggested a Merc 230T or similar. He went out and bought a wreck then paid a friend and me to renew exhaust, brake lines, petrol lines and self levelling rear suspension (horrendous job that) Eventually he accepted that it should go to a scrapyard (although he bought it with a new MOT) and he bought a 230T I found for him. In 4 years he has had no trouble with that one, however he felt it wasn't up to towing so off he went and bought the Double Six. No tow bar however, so in addition he bought a Rolls Royce Silver Spirit, which again is forever breaking down on him and being taken at great expense to a dealer.
I asked him why he just didn't settle for the Moggy and the Merc and he said he liked the other cars!! It is his money to waste, but it is my ear that gets bent with the problems (not for the Rolls though. That goes straight to the dealer)
Each to their own I suppose.
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Old Wrench



Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 226
Location: Essex and France

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ka wrote:
This may be a negative comment, but if he cannot even complete a simple task as changing/removing spark plugs, then one has to ask the question, why does he wish to own a classic that by definition requires at least some input from the owner.
I would suggest he books the vehicle in with someone competent, recommended by a Classic owner in his area, or sell it to someone who can maintain it, and buy a modern, sorry, but if you do not know what a jigsaw is, why would you buy a box of them?


I much agree with ka's sentiments.

Unfortunately, as "Classic Car" is a moving feast definition, people are now buying older cars, loaded with electronics, particularly ignition and injection, ABS etc.

Whilst for older cars which pre-date the roll out of esoteric electronics systems, diagnostic tools can be limited to perhaps compression testers, universal pressure gauges, ignition timing light and dwell meters, plus a decent multimeter and most other items can be knocked up by the keen amateur (such as cooling systems pressure testers), in order to properly diagnose faults in later cars, it becomes essential to invest in advanced engine analysers and software.

However, even when one has sported out significant amounts of boodle, essential knowledge becomes a prerequisite.

Whilst there is a European order for all automotive manufacturers to place all relevant service data in the public domain (Quite some few years back, I was working on a publishing project with one of the major players in the European after care market and it was truly a minefield), it is not necessarily easy to source the correct technical data: or cheap!

The core problem for the keen car collecting enthusiast, is finding a reasonably priced technician to carry out what they themselves cannot.

Not easy, IMHO.
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old Wrench wrote:

Whilst there is a European order for all automotive manufacturers to place all relevant service data in the public domain (Quite some few years back, I was working on a publishing project with one of the major players in the European after care market and it was truly a minefield), it is not necessarily easy to source the correct technical data: or cheap!


I also agree with Ka. The cars he is buying are basically "modern" so why not just buy a younger modern that has more life in it? There are plenty of quite interesting cars in the 0 to 15 year age band.

My normal classic is a 10 year old Mondeo TDCi 130. Has excellent handling 130 mph top speed and 245 lb-ft of torque for safe overtaking. With minimal servicing it's totally reliable and I can happily entrust it to a small local garage who do the jobs I won't do on a modern. As to the electrickerey that many garages have yet to engage brain with there is quite a bit of info available if you search for it and I found a really bright Czech guy who has made a decent diagnostic interface for the car (not the junk you get on eBay)
http://www.talkford.com/community/topic/198261-fordiag-current-status/
http://tinyurl.com/Fordiag

There is even a Jaguar badged version of the Mondeo if you're into the old status thing.

Peter
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Old Wrench



Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 226
Location: Essex and France

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mrs Wrench's car is a 1993 Volvo Highlander 940 Estate: which has been happily trogging backwards and forwards to France now for over 11 years: oft loaded to its gunnels with all sorts of stuff!

Luckily, the Bosch D Jetronic injection enjoys an on-board diagnosis function. OK a wee bit tiresome waiting for red LEDs to flash but works well.

Shortly after we bought it, and on an extended weekend's house hunting in Normandy, the Lambda warning light popped up.

As soon as we returned, I called a chum in the trade locally (who handles all our usual small stuff and MOTs) and he recommended another guy nearby.

After a day, and messing around with promises about waiting to borrow a friend's software he passed; I called the local main agent (I always ask for the workshop!) and spoke to the foreman who told me simply to remove a battery lead, flash it a couple of time and then reconnect and it would zero the ECU. which it did.

Since then, the Lambda light pops up here and there; I run thru the codes and clear them and then zero the ECU again.

Seems to be a common problem.

Last time I had problems, I spoke to another local guy who ran a mobile tuning and fault diagnosis bus from a large van. I was far too busy then to play cars!

He decided it was a faulty ECU. Hmm. And that's when I researched, online, and discovered a US Volvo site with just about everything one needed, including the code read out list!

New ECU? Err, no!

It was simply the ECU temp sender. These are usually an NTC (Negative Coefficient Thermistor) Thermistor is an device which may be described as a temperature dependent resister where the resistance decreases as the temperature drops.

The poor Volvo, on start up seemed to believe we were in Siberia, in mid-Winter with circa -50Cs of frost!

Having set-up and run the most advanced diagnostic unit in Southern England in 1970, I am perhaps, understandably cynical concerning hammer-wielding "Mechanics" and digital solid state devices and systems!
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peppiB



Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 686
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoke with him this morning. I asked if the car was carbs or fuel injection. 'No idea, I just open the bonnet and the engine is there' You said the carbs had been serviced 'Not sure really, but I think that's what they did' Is it a series II or series III? 'Definitely a series III' I advised him about the temperature sensor. 'Oh, someone has mentioned that and I have bought a new one. No idea where it fits so I will have to book it in to a garage'

Nurse - the screens please as I need a lay down!

Today's problem he phoned about was on his Moggy. He was out yesterday and the indicators didn't work. Fuse? I asked. 'No idea, but took it out again this morning having forgotten the indicators weren't working and they suddenly were OK' Loose connection probably. 'OK, I will book it in to the auto electrician' Rolling Eyes

Once again, thank you for all your help and ideas. Brilliant given the minimal information I had. Now you understand why I dissuaded him from buying a 1948 Singer. such a car deserves to be with an understanding owner
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If a car has an ECU it is rather silly to attempt a repair without checking to see if it is harbouring some DTCs. Blind shot-gunning is almost guaranteed to throw your money away.

Peter
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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1480
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peppi,

I assume you have checked the firing order and the correct leads are on the correct plugs Question

Art
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peppiB



Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 686
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Art
The main problem is the owners wife won't let me near the thing to have a look, I just have the owner bending my ear for advice unseen.
The car was allegedly inspected and serviced by an independent Jaguar specialist on Teesside so no matter what else they missed, one would expect they could get the firing order correct.
For most of its life the car was owned by a mechanic who lavished care on it, and only sold it when he turned 80 and was no longer able to drive, hence its previous impeccable running

His wife wants him to sell the car as it has become a money pit, but he refuses. I keep well out of that one
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Peter_L



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2680
Location: New Brunswick. Canada.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at it coldly. Offering help or even helping will, without doubt, put more money into something that is a serious money pit if the owner has to pay a mechanic to open the bonnet.

Fiddling around all over the place without having ECU info is like painting the funnels of the Titanic as it was sinking.


Last edited by Peter_L on Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Old Wrench



Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 226
Location: Essex and France

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which is rather what I wrote, err.. umpteen posts ago.......

Quote:
In order to properly diagnose fuel injection systems the starting point is to always read the OBD (On Board Diagnostics) codes.
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peppiB



Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 686
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick update on this. I eventually managed to get a look at the Daimler. I have heard of spark plugs being 'buried' in the engine, but I think these had been cremated and the ashes scattered! Nightmare. Changed the temp sensor and with a bit of encouragement managed to start it. Very lumpy, backfiring occasionally, and wouldn't run at all without some throttle. It sounds as if a head gasket has gone. When I left his wife was telling him to sell it, whilst he was investigating yet another garage he had heard of.

Once again, many thanks for the help and advice.
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Old Wrench



Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 226
Location: Essex and France

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bearing in mind the intransigence and difficulties, plus, of course, your health condition, clearly, peppi, you are well out of it!

This myopic belief system of naive car owners that " I've found another garage and these guys really know what they are doing!", provides me with endless, cynical, amusement.

Clearly, your chum has a lot more cash than brains.
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4100
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diagnostic readers have plummeted in price over the last few years, there are some quite reasonable ones for less than £30. They won't read everything on the latest models, but will quickly identify a sensor problem, sensors probably account for 95% of all electronic problems. Once you have identified the faulty sensor most are simple enough to change.

Dave
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peppiB



Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 686
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old Wrench wrote:
Bearing in mind the intransigence and difficulties, plus, of course, your health condition, clearly, peppi, you are well out of it!

This myopic belief system of naive car owners that " I've found another garage and these guys really know what they are doing!", provides me with endless, cynical, amusement.

Clearly, your chum has a lot more cash than brains.


I only went over in the first place to fix the indicators on his Moggy as my wheelchair has broken down and I need to get to a hospital on Monday. Whilst my heavy wheelchair is allowed on a public service bus, my lightweight scooter isn't so need a lift (annual diabetes eye check where they put drops in eyes so can't see to drive myself for a few hours, allegedly) The fault he couldn't find turned out to be a loose fuse!!! I certainly endorse your last statement (retired LGO with a rental portfolio of 10 properties)

Dave - my Landcrab does not have electronics so thankfully I have no need of a diagnostic reader!! Wish I could say the same for my wheelchair though. Bloke coming on Wednesday to read the precise problem (I know it is a brake fault) and charging 50 quid
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peppiB



Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 686
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK. Moving on over 2 years and in all that time the car has languished in the 'other garage he had heard of' Shocked Rolling Eyes Occasionally I would ask him how it was going and he said every time he called the garage the chap working on it was 'out' Yeah.

Anyway, a few months ago said garage eventually managed to get the car running Very Happy BUT, by then, as the car had been stored outdoors near the sea, it had rusted and needed the sills welding for an MOT. He has just phoned me to say the welding has been completed - only now the car won't start. He was asking if the welder could have cremated a wire somewhere adjacent to the sills. Only thing I can think of is if the fuel pumps are at the rear of the car and the cable to them has been compromised, but I have no idea. (Presumably the garage has used fresh fuel) I advised him to advertise it as spares or repair and allegedly he is having it brought home on a transporter soon and it will hit the bay at some point over the winter.

I don't know about you guys, but the thought of leaving 1 of my vehicles well into a third year at the same garage without any progress is just plain barmy
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