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1926 Rover 9 Roadster
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1480
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JP,

The higher voltage showing suggests a lack of load (the battery and ignition) on the dynamo. I think that the cut-out is not closing, thereby not connecting the Dynamo to its intended load. That would be the first place to look. As to the third brush. From what I've seen the main switch controls the dynamo output so there has to be a control wire going from the switch to the dynamo, plus of course the dynamo output wire which will go to the cut-out. Take the cover off the cut-out and observe the points closing as you rev. the engine. It may be the points need cleaning if it closes but does not appear to charge.

Art
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jp928



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 249
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art,
Only load I have available at the moment is a single headlight - 21W, 3.5A. When connected this shows correct drain on the ammeter. The dynamo is labelled 6V, so I wouldnt expect it to produce more than 7.5V, but without any voltage regulation - ??
If the cutout is not closing, how am I seeing high voltages at the battery?
I will try a manual close of cutout and see what happens.
Really odd part is seeing opposite polarity of dynamo output, as well as much higher than expected volts.
I now have a lead off both main brushes so I can see if I get positive volts out of either. Because I expected the output of the dynamo to be +ve, and the single output lead from the dynamo means its body should be grounded (3rd brush internally grounded through field), its all arranged as -ve earth - could that be wrong? The wiring diagram shows D output of dynamo going to +ve on the central switch, but it also shows a -ve lead and a shunt lead to the switch, which are not present on this 1926 car, or on the spare 1925 engine.
Apparently the dynamo, starter and maggy were all overhauled (many years ago) by the same person, and the starter was incorrectly assembled with the -ve pole earthed, so an error in the dynamo is not out of the question.
Not having much luck with searches for 3rd brush dynamo diagrams of internal wiring that match mine.

thanks
john
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jp928



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 249
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The central switch facia has to come off to access the wiring terminals, and there are some notes on the back. They read :-

"When used with Combined unit (Dynamotor set) Neg: battery only.
When used with 2-unit set, Neg: Battery AND Neg: Dynamo."

My car has separate starter and dynamo so I am pretty sure the second line applies.
The D(Dynamo) terminal on the facia and the wiring diagram is labelled +ve. To me this means the dynamo body is connected to negative (ie grounded to negative), and dynamo output is +ve. The wiring diagram shows a lead from dynamo marked "+" going to the "D" terminal on the switch block.

Or am I misreading the notes? Do they mean something else? Does "NEG: Dynamo" mean its output is -ve?

Thanks
jp
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1480
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JP,

My apologies, I thought you were measuring at the dynamo. You have to be aware that the battery is also a load as far as the dynamo is concerned. If you are reading 10 volts across the battery assuming it's a 6 volt battery, then I would suspect the battery is faulty. But that aside, I've just realised that there are two different diagrams shown and the relevant diagram for your car is the right side of the wiring diagram in the vertical panel and this shows that there should be two wires coming from the dynamo with the positive going to the main switch. There may not be a negative wire as such emerging as it could be attached to the earth/casing internally. This indicates that the car is negative earth. The main switch, the charging switch, is the one that kills the magneto but it also connects the cut out. To be sure the dynamo is charging the correct polarity you should 'flash' the dynamo. This done with the engine off by taking a wire from the battery positive and just brushing it against the dynamo positive terminal. There should/will be a blue spark. This will polarise the pole shoes and you should get the correct polarity. Start the engine and ensure that the polarity is now correct. I hope this helps as the diagram as presented was confusing until you mentioned there were two different systems used.

Art
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jp928



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 249
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art,
Thanks.
Be aware that inside the central switch the charging switch has been 'jumpered' with a wire from the D terminal to the centre and across to the Shunt terminal (which goes nowhere). This means that the D terminal is permanently connected to the Cut-out frame as the switch centre is shown connected there - text note, NOT a circuit line.
Also noted yesterday - with no power connected, I can push the cutout closed, and it springs back open when pressure removed; with battery connected, the cut-out stays closed once pushed, and it has to be pulled open manually. With a DVM across the battery, closing the cut-out causes the volt reading to dip a couple of 100ths, eg 7.21 to 7.18v. This tells me there is bugger-all current running, not enough to try to motor the dynamo. Any thoughts on whats going on there? Poor contact on the points?

The battery is brand new, 105Ah, less than 2 weeks old. Starts the engine easily, readily.
My reading about flashing the field coils , IIRC, did not recommend doing it through the armature - shouldnt this be done through the field by removing the 3rd brush lead and using that lead?

Thanks
john
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jp928



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 249
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Separated the 3rd brush lead from the windings lead. Resistance with 3rd brush connected was pretty much a short. Without 3rd brush, around 3.5 Ohms. Flashed that across battery +ve several times - small sparks visible.
Re-assembled, started motor, same as before - rapidly fluctuating volts at the battery, AND amps out of genny.....

john
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1480
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

The 'rapidly fluctuating voltage' part has me confused. The battery should smooth these anomalies out like a giant capacitor, which in effect it is.

So as it stands now you have a charging generator but with 'lumpy' voltage?

I would say this pointing back to the generator. An open coil in the armature or brushes bouncing due to out of round commutator are a couple of things that spring to mind. Don't you think it would be a worthwhile exercise to re-instate the wiring back what was originally?? You may have to get the generator looked at by a specialist who can test the armature on a growler.

With regards to the voltage dropping slowly when you closed the cut-out point that would indicate to me the current was indeed flowing into the generator and if there had been no fan belt it would have 'motored'.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Art
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jp928



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 249
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art,
I think you are right - genny may have to come off soon. Shame its chain driven.
About only thing I can think of now is move the 3rd brush. It looks to be near one extreme of its travel, about 90d away from the positive main brush - maybe its trying to generate too much current ? Will move it tomorrow and try again. If that fails it will have to come off.

thanks
john
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jp928



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 249
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved the 3rd brush towards the +ve brush (against rotation direction of armature) and started - no change at all. As soon as I can find a sparky who knows this type of stuff I will take it off and get it seen to. Pretty happy with the actual wiring, main unknown is condition of cut out, and why the car came with what looks like an external cutout - Lucas ER1145, or 339260, neither of which I can find on the web anywhere. Might also look into a modern solid state charge controller a bit down the track.

Update! Thought a bit more about the cutout, and its behaviour of sticking on when there was battery volts in the loom. Watching ammeter when pushing closed, it showed a small discharge, which didnt make sense to me -it should drag several A , into a stalled motor like the genny. The cutout is built into the CS6 central switch , just under the ammeter. The closing plate is accessible, points visible. So I got some emery paper and abraded the points a bit - 1/4" wide strip is all I could get in there, and only do one side at a time, couldnt get it in doubled over. Applying battery to circuit showed a near full scale deflection on ammeter, and it didnt stay closed when released.
So, lets try engine again. Doing this one handed isnt fun, as I have to hold throttle open some to keep it running, and have maybe 1 minute of run on the fuel I am giving it - tank is not installed while dashboard is incomplete. So while I am jiggling throttle I need a mirror to see the ammeter. Running, I still see rapidly changing volts across battery, BUT I now see 10A on the ammeter, and on my digital A meter across the genny output to the loom!!!!!! Amps vary with revs as expected as well. Will try to clean points some more, hopefully it will improve things. These instruments, as with most of the car, were restored, at least cosmetically, some 25 years ago, and its lived in a shed near the sea for many years, so its not unreasonable for the points to not be in the best condition.

PROGRESS!!!!

john
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jp928



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 249
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Next effort - the floor. Existing was a mess of old and new, tongue and groove, not real good condition. Recommendation was marine ply - more robust and waterproof than planks, would need fewer screws. Found some in 18mm thickness which beautifully matches the rebate it sits in. Didnt enjoy cutting the tapered sides much, but it looks pretty good to me. Retained 2 existing planks at the front as they had already been cut for the gear lever and hand brake, and fitted pretty well, with a bit of fettling.




Will do some painting before final installation.

Now For something completely different - car came with a viking mascot - looked good to me, but then another came up on ebay.com.au that was a bit different. Made a cheap bid, and won it. The one on the left is this new one - not as rounded as the other, as though its been squashed ,has a casting lump on left shoulder at the rear, and had a rough cast post on the base, where the other has a threaded hole. Right hand one looks like it might have been broken off at the ankles and welded/brazed back together.
Any comments based on others you have seen?


jp
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jp928



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 249
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

More work. Went to exhaust shop and got a hanger for the pipe at the rear - they actually overcharged me, then rang me soon after to give me some refund!
Little bit of bending and cutting the strip with holes in it, and its all done. Removing the rope that was holding the pipe then allowed me to fit the rear floor panel and check it for true. All good, the chassis rivets dont touch the ply thank goodness - there are lots. A little trimming on the front floor where it meets the rear , and it was time to drill screw holes, c/sink them and that now is all fitted - although it will come out again for painting.
Only hard part now on the floor is the angled toe board, getting it around the pedals and the steering column. Plan to make some cardboard or similar patterns before cutting any timber there.

jp
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colwyn500



Joined: 21 Oct 2012
Posts: 1745
Location: Nairn, Scotland

PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that it is obvious that the Viking on the left is a modern interpretation of the much more detailed and patinated original one on the right.

I am loving your regular and detailed updates by the way, despite my car interests being in very different makes and models.
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jp928



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 249
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The left viking looks like a mould has been pulled from an original, but somehow was distorted to produce a thinner body front-to-back. Its presentable, and was cheap.
Anyway, floor is progressing well, painted the underside silver, got almost all the gremlins out. Now for the hard part - making top of toeboard fit around the steering column and pedals. In order to do this I had to get the steering column in final position. Got some measurements from two other owners which were close to the same, so its all done now.



Hand throttle and advance/retard levers are in place ready to couple up. Next job is to make up complete throttle linkage, based on parts book and a couple of pics of other cars.

I put an ad in local Vintage Drivers Club magazine, and today a gent turned up with enough parts to make 2 correct sidelights that will fit and look correct. Swapped for the 2 Rotax sidelights that wouldnt fit this car's guards, so thats a real winner!

jp
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jp928



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 249
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently posted elsewhere here (and other forums) about the lack of a steering wheel bolt - 27/32x18tpi. No such thread visible anywhere on the web.
A gent on a local site (ozclubbies) turned up some threaded round stock within 24hrs, and I received it in the post today - perfect fit! Saw lots of scepticism about the size being correct, but it was given me by 2 other 9 owners, so I was pretty confident it was correct.
Problem solved! Moving on again.

jp
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Peter_L



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2680
Location: New Brunswick. Canada.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocked
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