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Morris Dipper tray
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Miken



Joined: 24 Dec 2012
Posts: 543

PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:47 pm    Post subject: Morris Dipper tray Reply with quote

Im after some advice about my pre war Morris Cowley engine.
Morris service sheet CO/38 says:
"Make sure the dipper tray does not fit too snugly against the walls of the engine sump as oil that is thrown up by the big ends will then merely drain back again into the tray and tend to cause flooding. There should be a gap of at least a clear 1/8" all round the tray."
The dipper tray in my cars sump fits very snugly indeed, with no clear gap either side.
It must have been like that when it was made so Im a bit confused.
Suggestions please.
Thanks
Mike


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Penman



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4746
Location: Swindon, Wilts.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
How much clearance is there for the journals? I wonder if it would have had washer/spacers under the tray where it is bolted down.
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Bristols should always come in pairs.

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Miken



Joined: 24 Dec 2012
Posts: 543

PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good question.
Unfortunately the rest of the engine is away having work done so I cant tell at the moment.
Raising the tray on spacers, as you suggest, will produce a gap all round because of the tapering sides of the sump.
However, I would be surprised if there were spacers originally fitted.
It would seem simpler and make more sense (to me) to just manufacture the cast tray locations in the sump to the correct height in the first place.
Also, the 4 fixing screws are are not the familiar ISO metric coarse (this is a Hotchkiss engine) but 8mm pre war French metric fine items (whitworth head). They are just the right length and dont appear to have been shortened.
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Peter_L



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2680
Location: New Brunswick. Canada.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miken wrote:
Good question.
Unfortunately the rest of the engine is away having work done so I cant tell at the moment.
Raising the tray on spacers, as you suggest, will produce a gap all round because of the tapering sides of the sump.
However, I would be surprised if there were spacers originally fitted.
It would seem simpler and make more sense (to me) to just manufacture the cast tray locations in the sump to the correct height in the first place.
Also, the 4 fixing screws are are not the familiar ISO metric coarse (this is a Hotchkiss engine) but 8mm pre war French metric fine items (whitworth head). They are just the right length and dont appear to have been shortened.


Could it be a simple case of "manual and actual" not aligned.

I would have thought those large holes in the tray would be quite adequate to drain the oil.
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Kenham



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 209
Location: Kent

PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I would think you would need a hell of a flow of oil if those four holes will not drain it.
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Penman



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4746
Location: Swindon, Wilts.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
This picture seems to agree with you about no spacers.

http://moreg.org.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/cowley_engine.jpg
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Bristols should always come in pairs.

Any 2 from:-
Straight 6
V8 V10
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Miken



Joined: 24 Dec 2012
Posts: 543

PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes that's a good point about the big holes in the tray. I hadn't thought about that.
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Miken



Joined: 24 Dec 2012
Posts: 543

PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After inquiring elsewhere I have decided that as it looks like my car has always had the sump tray like this and as the Morris service sheet was printed in the days when the car was originally fitted with 2 compression ring only pistons, I'm not going to worry about it and will reassemble and try it.
I'm hoping that when I get my block back from being rebored it will come with new modern 3 ring pistons (one of which will be an oil control ring) and it should be better than new.
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Peter_L



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2680
Location: New Brunswick. Canada.

PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miken wrote:
Yes that's a good point about the big holes in the tray. I hadn't thought about that.


If it was mine, and because I have the curiosity of a shed full of cats.

What is the total area of the holes compared to the length of the tray x the 1/8" mentioned ?

I would think that the splash lubrication would be improved by having the majority of the oil going back to the tray and therefore keeping the reservoirs full, rather than having the bulk of the oil running down the side and straight into the sump.
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1948
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a note of warning, based on the experience of the current owner of my old Morgan 4/4 series 1.

Which has the Standard Special engine!

This has a large flattish sump, with a [windage?] tray bolted in.

On a trip some years back, he had the misfortune to suffer a 'locked', or 'seized', engine. Spoilt the day, it did!

On examination, it was found the bolts that secure the tray had slackened off [vibration]...allowing the tray to flap about a bit.The crank webs caught the tray, bending it a bit, and jamming the crank solid.

All was easily fixed, however....but very worrying of the wallet when it first happened.

Now, I think he has Loctited the bolts in situ...

Maybe worth not taking the chance??
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