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Rick
Site Admin


Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 20089
Location: Cheshire

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

D4B wrote:
roverdriver wrote:
I would use my Model A Ford (Tyre size 4.50 x 21) and go anywhere that I wished, but modern cars would have difficulty negotiating even small rises on the road.


So skinny tyres are better in the snow ?


On normal road tyres I always found my old A40 to be good in snow, whereas the Spitfire I had at the time, on far wider tyres, would often struggle.

RJ
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Various 1920s-1960s - Austin, Morris, Commer, Dodge etc.
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Ashley



Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 1431
Location: Near Stroud, Glos

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Merc on 265/35 x 19 is absolutely useless in snow, especially as traction control turns the engine off of the wheels spin.
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mikeC



Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Posts: 1411
Location: Market Warsop, Nottinghamshire

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, skinny tyres are the answer for both snow and mud. I have even managed to pull a Land Rover out of deep mud with my Austin Seven when another 4x4 had failed! Ice is another matter: technique is more important then.
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Bitumen Boy



Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1298
Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikeC wrote:
I have even managed to pull a Land Rover out of deep mud with my Austin Seven when another 4x4 had failed!


Pictures..? Smile
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roverdriver



Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 1079
Location: 100 miles from Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMHO the narrow tyres mean that they have a smaller 'footprint' and therefore more pounds per square inch on the ground. They sink through (or chew through) the snow to the hard road surface underneath and so give traction. The wider the tyre, the more likely for the tyre to remain on the surface of the snow. Mind you, I have never had to drive through deep snow, and would prefer wide tyres (in theory at least) on ice.
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mikeC



Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Posts: 1411
Location: Market Warsop, Nottinghamshire

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bitumen Boy wrote:
mikeC wrote:
I have even managed to pull a Land Rover out of deep mud with my Austin Seven when another 4x4 had failed!


Pictures..? Smile


'Fraid not. It was back in the 1970s when film was precious! I probably didn't even have my camera with me.
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Clactonguy



Joined: 20 Mar 2018
Posts: 47
Location: clacton on sea

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:01 pm    Post subject: tyres Reply with quote

skinny tyres can cut through to tarmac easier than fat ones when loading on tyres is same. often why you see army trucks and land rovers with thinner tyres but heavy tread pattern ( mud etc) . don't think modern tyre compounds are much different to ones of past but tread pattern makes a big difference.
the biggest difference being driver! don't think they teach driving in adverse conditions in uk? but I was taught by my instructor to use second gear and high torque LOW revs when pulling away plus obvious early slowing down ,no heavy braking etc.
possible we ought to build test areas where we can use rain, snow sprayed on track and teach pupils. how to handle . eg front wheel drive. rear wheel drive . steering into a skid etc .
aware tyre metal studs illegal Uk due to damage to road surfaces but there are now snow 'chains' ( plastic) and snow 'socks' that fit on tyres for poor or extreme conditions . maybe people like breakdown services ought to carry these and hand them out to struggling vehicles? ( costs to be recovered of course eg card payment or agree later billing etc)
Laughing
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consul 57



Joined: 09 Nov 2017
Posts: 176
Location: somerset

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i used to be an driving instructor and took many a pupil out in the snow when we had any, sadly we get it so little that the theory is lost once the test is passed and with no experience of it no wonder so many people have trouble with driving in adverse weather.
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Penman



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 3920
Location: Lancashire

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Consul 57
Trouble is it is only us conscientious instructors who did/do that.
I see far to many posting on FB etc that they always heed the police's "Don't drive unless it is essential" advice, regardless if some roads are drivable and it is really only some areas which are dangerously hazardous.

I had 2 criteria to judge by:
1) Could I get to the pupil?
2) Does the pupil have enough experience/ability to cope with learning this new skill?
It was my job to keep us safe from the other idiots that might be out and about.

I used to use the same criteria for Fog as well.
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consul 57



Joined: 09 Nov 2017
Posts: 176
Location: somerset

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Penman wrote:
Hi Consul 57
Trouble is it is only us conscientious instructors who did/do that.
I see far to many posting on FB etc that they always heed the police's "Don't drive unless it is essential" advice, regardless if some roads are drivable and it is really only some areas which are dangerously hazardous.

I had 2 criteria to judge by:
1) Could I get to the pupil?
2) Does the pupil have enough experience/ability to cope with learning this new skill?
It was my job to keep us safe from the other idiots that might be out and about.

I used to use the same criteria for Fog as well.

glad to see another sensible aproach, when i passed my test we had a dose of snow here in somerset so i took my hillman imp out to get experience in driving in snow, and although we seldom get much snow, now i have 2 x 4x4's and will go out when snow is about, i also spend some weekends doing 4x4 days so driving in slippery conditions is second nature, i love it the roads are much quieter as well!
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1056
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: tyres Reply with quote

Clactonguy wrote:
don't think they teach driving in adverse conditions in uk? but I was taught by my instructor to use second gear and high torque LOW revs when pulling away plus obvious early slowing down ,no heavy braking etc.
possible we ought to build test areas where we can use rain, snow sprayed on track and teach pupils. how to handle . eg front wheel drive. rear wheel drive . steering into a skid etc .
:


It is very easy to demand/suggest all sorts of differing training concepts to the basic driving test.
The two biggest factors that restrict such ideas are [a] cost, and [b] time.
I spent the last twenty years of my working life, as a specialist instructor [driving] working for the MoD. Over that time, the establishment where I worked could take a raw, unlicensed individual, and take them up through the various driving tests [up to C+E], then they would enter courses designed to turn them into military drivers....up to a very advanced standard...depending on what course they were doing.
This would often take a month or more of intensive driver training....whereby [until the end] the individual 'student' would be accompanied at all times by a highly skilled instructor.
This costs!!
Some 'arms' would pay for skid training using the Cedergrens skid frames attached to various [usually military, although some weren't] vehicles. [RAF was a case in point]
The Army ceased this training..except for certain exceptional 'trades'.....purely on the grounds of cost.

The important aspect was, the accompaniment by a skilled instructor.....there, to coach, mentor and advise [the only method that can be used with a qualified licence holder]...who also was required to assess.

The DSA [DVSA now] was heavily involved, in the assessment [quality control] of instructors & examiners....so that there was no 'difference ' between a military, & civilian, licence holder...in terms of standards of assessment,examination, or syllabus.

It all cost rather a lot.
translate this into the civilian world....and the sheer logistics of training, and assessment become unpalatable.
Certainly to the individual who only wants a driving licence, but has to pay.
Thus, we are left with a 'voluntary' system.
The basic driving test is a simple assessment of competence.
It is the first rung on the driving ladder.
It might seem a simple task [to an experienced driver.....but how many would actually meet the required standards if they took a 'test' today??]....but that first test involves a quite complicated set of assessments.

Actually being an Examiner involves rather a lot more than most lay people imagine.
The tests themselves actually 'involve' a lot more than even the candidates imagine.
Silence doesn't mean the examiner isn't conducting a multitude of different assessments.

However, to acquire further driver training, is possible, but at a cost....both financial, and in terms of time.

Plus, this further training is entirely the choice of the individual.

Most cannot, or will not, be bothered.

Much is left up to the individual...hence why we see less use of the Highway Code, and more use of Myway Code.
The basic driving licence has been for decades, and always will be, viewed as a 'travel pass'...an oyster card, if one likes?

In our society [and the way it is organised], the driving licence is the viable alternative to proper public transport.

Make the training more rigorous...or making the test more difficult [the only real way is to make it longer]....inevitably would lead to more folk becoming disillusioned with the time factor...and driving around illegally.
So a balance has to be drawn....not too easy, yet not so difficult, or time consuming, that folk resort to ignoring it altogether.

As an example, witness how the vastly increased costs of insurance has led to more and more drivers actually not bothering with it altogether?
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Bitumen Boy



Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1298
Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's another factor that is probably at play too. As time goes on fewer and fewer young people are bothering to learn to drive at all. Maybe this is because of the green agenda, maybe it's the cost, maybe just the obvious hassle factor of driving in congested cities - who knows? Whatever the cause, it's bad news in the longer term for both the motor industry and the government that treats motorists as a ready source of cash. I suspect the very last thing the government wants to do is make obtaining a driving licence harder and decreasing the pool of future drivers still further.
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 2752
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44849381

If young people are happy to live their lives without a car then that means the Government needs to do much more to support public transport.

With failing Grayling at the wheel I wouldn't bank on it. Rolling Eyes
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