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Super Minx clutch losing pressure
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Penguin45



Joined: 28 Jul 2014
Posts: 316
Location: LBA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BILD1013 by Patricia Sanders, on Flickr

There you go Tricia. Click arrow to left of picture, select BBC Code, then what size you want. C+P the link in the box and paste it in here. Simples.

P45.
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V8 Nutter



Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 503

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the photo that cap looks quite badly damaged. You can safely assume the crank will be damaged too. Unless you have a specific reason for repairing that engine I would suggest you start looking for another unit. What may have caused the problem is not just wear in the clutch but Rootes continued with the old carbon thrust release bearing. Sitting in a traffic jam with a foot on the clutch wears the carbon away to a point where it allows the release fork to go over centre.
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TriciaS



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

V8 Nutter wrote:
From the photo that cap looks quite badly damaged. You can safely assume the crank will be damaged too. Unless you have a specific reason for repairing that engine I would suggest you start looking for another unit. What may have caused the problem is not just wear in the clutch but Rootes continued with the old carbon thrust release bearing. Sitting in a traffic jam with a foot on the clutch wears the carbon away to a point where it allows the release fork to go over centre.

Thanks for your reply, I tried asking speedy spares if they sell bearing caps but he didn't know what I was talking about and told me I want a con rod, I know he is wrong but don't know another word for bearing cap to explain to him what i want and nothing on ebay for sale except the bearing shells so do you know if I can buy the bearing cap separately, the engine sounds lovely at idle, I just want to see if new thrust washers cure the clutch problem, I don't mind ending up buying a new crankshaft (obviously not a job we could do ourselves) but not worth changing engine either if it won't cure the clutch problem or else I might as well just buy another car
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TriciaS



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There you go Tricia. Click arrow to left of picture, select BBC Code, then what size you want. C+P the link in the box and paste it in here. Simples.

P45.[/quote]
Thanks for adding my pic but I still am a bit thick cos I could not see a arrow to the left , I iwll try again to put the pic of the crankshaft next to see if that looks too badly worn to give new thrust washers a go so if I don't manage it I do hope you around to add that pic too but will try my best to find the arrow haha
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TriciaS



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[img]https://flic.kr/p/2f2hGPd[/img]

nope looking everywhere and cannot see any arrows sorry for being thick
not found an arrow but now see bbcode so will try that[img]BILD1026 by Patricia Sanders, on Flickr[/img]
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TriciaS



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[img]BILD1014 by Patricia Sanders, on Flickr
[/img]BILD1015 by Patricia Sanders, on Flickr
[img]BILD1019 by Patricia Sanders, on Flickr[/img]
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TriciaS



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

V8 Nutter wrote:
From the photo that cap looks quite badly damaged. You can safely assume the crank will be damaged too. Unless you have a specific reason for repairing that engine I would suggest you start looking for another unit. What may have caused the problem is not just wear in the clutch but Rootes continued with the old carbon thrust release bearing. Sitting in a traffic jam with a foot on the clutch wears the carbon away to a point where it allows the release fork to go over centre.

The previous owner didn't know how to use the overdrive and on test drive he was switching it on /off like a yo yo so maybe that is what wore them out to drop into the sump but partner does not drive like that so hoping if fit thicker washers it will be enough to test the car on a good run
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1461
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trish,

Those bearings look great and re-useable. The centre main bearing cap, the one that the thrush washers fit in looks bad as V8 said. To do this ‘right’ you would have to replace that cap and to do the job properly would involve the engine out and the main bearings line bored. Not an expensive job in itself but the engine block will also have similar damage. If possible could you post a picture of the thrust washers (all four and both sides) and let’s have a look at them.

The function of these thrust washers is to take up the ‘end play’ in the crankshaft. There should be very little movement when you move the crank forward and back. If there is (in your case) instead of the clutch releasing, some/most of the pedal movement is used/wasted moving the crankshaft towards the front.

As an aside your post says ‘clutch losing pressure’. Have you eliminated a hydraulic problem? While you are under the car pull back the rubber on the clutch slave cylinder and check to see if it is wet. Do the same on the master cylinder (the one attached to the clutch pedal) this may involve crawling under the dash to get at. Any signs of a leak, replace that part.

I think you are doing really well to have gone this far.

Art
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V8 Nutter



Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 503

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The part you are looking for is called a centre main cap, but because caps and blocks are machined as a unit, the chances of finding one that will fit exactly are remote. As Art said the block will probably need to be line bored. The other problem is if the cap is that bad the block and the crank are probably damaged too. It's going to be an engine out job, not difficult. Probably a couple of hours if you are not used to it. You will need to hire a crane, it's a heavy old lump. When the engine is out you can examine the clutch including the release bearing to find out what caused the problem. If you do take the engine out, leave the gearbox in the car, it's going to be difficult to handle with that overdrive unit
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TriciaS



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

47Jag wrote:
Trish,

Those bearings look great and re-useable. The centre main bearing cap, the one that the thrush washers fit in looks bad as V8 said. To do this ‘right’ you would have to replace that cap and to do the job properly would involve the engine out and the main bearings line bored. Not an expensive job in itself but the engine block will also have similar damage. If possible could you post a picture of the thrust washers (all four and both sides) and let’s have a look at them.

The function of these thrust washers is to take up the ‘end play’ in the crankshaft. There should be very little movement when you move the crank forward and back. If there is (in your case) instead of the clutch releasing, some/most of the pedal movement is used/wasted moving the crankshaft towards the front.

As an aside your post says ‘clutch losing pressure’. Have you eliminated a hydraulic problem? While you are under the car pull back the rubber on the clutch slave cylinder and check to see if it is wet. Do the same on the master cylinder (the one attached to the clutch pedal) this may involve crawling under the dash to get at. Any signs of a leak, replace that part.

I think you are doing really well to have gone this far.

Art
[img]BILD1035 by Patricia Sanders, on Flickr
[/img]BILD1036 by Patricia Sanders, on Flickr
[img]BILD1037 by Patricia Sanders, on Flickr
[/img]BILD1038 by Patricia Sanders, on Flickr
so only 2 fitted to 1725 engines and this is them both sides, they were both in the sump so presume the worst one was in the side with the damage on the cap, previously checked and changed all pipework between master and slave clutch so definitely no leaks anywhere. we will give up and sell car if it measn engine out as we have no workspace only shingle driveway which is no good for working under car. I was hoping to just put in thicker thrust washers and see if it means clutch works even if just enough to get it to a garage for work to be done but garages round here are all cons and know nothing about old cars so not worth ending up with a bill bigger than the car is worth. I am hoping if it stops raining today and dries out enough Lee can put our new washers in and then check gap again but I think we gonn need even biger washers haha as gap with none in is big, I am having trouble working out difference betwen micrometer readings and feeler gauge numbers as seem drastically different even though both in inches, will get back with readings in a few mins
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1165
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Micrometer and feeler gauges both marked in thousands of an inch [thous]..[unless you have a metric feeler gauge by mistake?? Smile ]....but micrometer will likely give you a mixture of numbers.....go back to school maths, and round up to nearest tens, or hundreds, to get the feeler gauge measurement....
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Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Ford Mustang coupe, 1967, 6 cylinder auto.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
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Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1165
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No garage or car port?
Shingle driveway is fine.....for working on [nowadays those of us who work outside all the time are referred to as 'bush mechanics'...]

What you need is, some of those large plywood chewed-up boards builders use...lay them down on the shingle.... a large bit of scrap plate steel us useful for trolley jacks to run on as well.

Go on eBay and buy yourself one of those Chinese engine cranes..can be had for around 80 quids or so.....and can be modified [they use standard steel sections, available in most towns]....to extend reach, or lift more. They have wheels...which can run on the ply floor you will have snaffled from a local building site?

Whilst you are in a spending mood, why not buy yourself off eBay, one of those engine stands? they have wheels, and make things a bit easier come work-time?

Thus, use the crane to lift engine out and move about...then attach engine to stand to wheel that about?

Maybe the engine could be got into your kitchen? [If weather is bad?]

May cost you somewhere in the very low hundreds for these tools,but better the money spent on yourselves, than lining someone else's pockets, eh?
Plus, at the end of the day you still have those tools, so if anything goes wrong, you're not trying to re-coup losses from a recalcitrant garage owner?
Cheap Chinese is excellent for your occasional use.....not worth spending any more on better quality, when only used once in a blue moon?

These tools I mentioned can in fact be dismantled easily, to get through doorways, or into sheds for storage.
Keep boards for laying onto driveway too....
You have an advantage with your shingle driveway..if oil gets spilt [and it will, regardless] then a quick rake over, and no-one else will notice.... Smile Smile
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Ford Mustang coupe, 1967, 6 cylinder auto.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.
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TriciaS



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alastairq wrote:
Micrometer and feeler gauges both marked in thousands of an inch [thous]..[unless you have a metric feeler gauge by mistake?? Smile ]....but micrometre will likely give you a mixture of numbers.....go back to school maths, and round up to nearest tens, or hundreds, to get the feeler gauge measurement....

silly me for not checking, Lee bought a new feeler gauge yesterday in inches cos all his had numbers worn off and little did I know he tried it, not enough blades to fill gap so he used his metric one, no wonder I thought gap was ridiculously big haha, it is still big enough so need to find what is biggest washers available
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TriciaS



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alastairq wrote:
No garage or car port?
Shingle driveway is fine.....for working on [nowadays those of us who work outside all the time are referred to as 'bush mechanics'...]

What you need is, some of those large plywood chewed-up boards builders use...lay them down on the shingle.... a large bit of scrap plate steel us useful for trolley jacks to run on as well.

Go on eBay and buy yourself one of those Chinese engine cranes..can be had for around 80 quids or so.....and can be modified [they use standard steel sections, available in most towns]....to extend reach, or lift more. They have wheels...which can run on the ply floor you will have snaffled from a local building site?

Whilst you are in a spending mood, why not buy yourself off eBay, one of those engine stands? they have wheels, and make things a bit easier come work-time?

Thus, use the crane to lift engine out and move about...then attach engine to stand to wheel that about?

Maybe the engine could be got into your kitchen? [If weather is bad?]

May cost you somewhere in the very low hundreds for these tools,but better the money spent on yourselves, than lining someone else's pockets, eh?
Plus, at the end of the day you still have those tools, so if anything goes wrong, you're not trying to re-coup losses from a recalcitrant garage owner?
Cheap Chinese is excellent for your occasional use.....not worth spending any more on better quality, when only used once in a blue moon?

These tools I mentioned can in fact be dismantled easily, to get through doorways, or into sheds for storage.
Keep boards for laying onto driveway too....
You have an advantage with your shingle driveway..if oil gets spilt [and it will, regardless] then a quick rake over, and no-one else will notice.... Smile Smile

Thanks for advice, if we were younger and lived in our own place I would definitely buy these things but am in council with the kind of neighbours who would report working on the vehicle as in contract not allowed, also council places have no storage or kitchen big enough to swing the cat never mind do an engine, we only fit in one at a time haha, sheds are full of the spares we got with the car too
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1165
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That really is unfortunate.

I don't have a garage...and I rent [privately], and I'm on a pension...of sorts....but I do have a workshop...which is really a bit inaccessible....things like cars have to be winched up to get close..

I do have a Dancover portable garage, however...and I bought and fitted a lean-to car port [landlord is pleased]...plus I have a large tarmac drive...all part of the price I pay...doesn't leave much for owt else ...but hey ho.
Joys of rural living?

Wish in many ways I was much further up the Council list?
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Ford Mustang coupe, 1967, 6 cylinder auto.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces.
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