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HILLMAN DIFFERENTIAL
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ian



Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:38 am    Post subject: HILLMAN DIFFERENTIAL Reply with quote

I have experienced frustration trying to achieve a silent diff in my 1966 Hillman Gazelle. It is a 3.89:1 Diff, and is the same as the Hillman Hunter, with fine splined half shaft fitting.

The first good replacement second hand diff was re-assembled professionally with new bearings and seal, and produced a whine in drive and on the overun upon re-fitting to the car.

The second diff, out of a Hillman Hunter with 98,000 miles on the clock was also taken down professionally [ different company] and re-assembled with new bearings and seal. It also produces an irritating audible whine in both drive and on the overun.

The car was taken back this last time to the chap that did the work. He drove the car and conceded that it indeed had an axle whine. All he offered however, was a shrug and a weak smile.

There seems to be some reservation here in Australia about rebuilding seconhand diffs. If you can't supply a brand new crown wheel and pinion, then operatives give no guarantee for quiet operation.

Problem is that these crown wheels and pinions are as scarce as hens teeth these days: the only new ones offered are through Rootes Spares in Holland, who offer new 3.7:1 and 3.89:1 . Not sure about these, or the quality, and it is probable that they are of Chinese manufacture.

Speedy Spares & Alpine West Midlands are fresh out ofthese parts !!!

Does anybody have any useful information, sources, or solutions please ???

Ian.

Melbourne
AUS.
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Churchill Johnson



Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Posts: 325
Location: Rayleigh Essex

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This may not help you but i can say in my younger day's i overhauled and set up a fair few crown wheel and pinion's all on Vauxhall's, and can remember doing one on a Bedford CA the owner could not afford a new c/p but i fitted new bearing's and seal's and did not think it would be any good, but it was as quiet as the proverble church mouse, surely you have nothing to lose by having a go yourself, the important thing is to set it up using engineer's blue to get the correct marking, as you can gather using old c/p no one can say if it would be noisy or quiet.
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Farmer John



Joined: 18 Feb 2010
Posts: 159
Location: Manawatu NZ

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howdy Ian.
You have had the awful bad luck to end up being afflicted by the whining diff syndrome. Simply put, keep trying secondhand assemblies, or wait for or continue hunting for new parts.
When a diff from that era whines you are unlikely to be able to completely eliminate it. New bearings, absolute precision in setup, and if it is then quiet you have been very very lucky. That is rare. Your best chance of a cure would be to find someone who has done lots of Rootes diffs, successfully, has the shop tools to do it, and the manufacturers workshop manual.
Makes the secondhand route look attractive.
In the seventies there was a factory fix for a whine in HQs or XCs, cannot remember which, the fix was to block off all of the the holes in the panel behind the rear seat. I was told that they tried to fix the diff, deadening the sound was easier and a hundred percent successful.

John
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ian



Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for these two responses.

Inevitably, if you want something done properly you have to do it yourself. I have the workshop manuals, and though I'm not a professional engineer, I may just embark on the very time consuming [for me], adventure in an attempt to get it right on the last whining diff that came out of the car.

The comments about the Bedford CA diff is believable. It is just a matter of knowing and understanding how to set up a diff, and I'm beginning to think that perhaps this level of 'nous' is not in the market place anymore.
We all knew that setting up a diff needs practical skills, and not many ordinary people would even attempt it.

Differential fitters appear quick to grab onto the case hardening aspect of the gears,also wear and age: but they take the money and then take no account.

I have in the past struck it lucky, and removed diffs from cars in the scrap yard, which when fitted are silent. Pehaps I should have done that with the last one, instead of going via the diff shop.

Masking the noise had actually passed my mind too, but will probably not go down that track.

Ian
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MikeEdwards



Joined: 25 May 2011
Posts: 1701
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ian wrote:
and I'm beginning to think that perhaps this level of 'nous' is not in the market place anymore.


I think you're probably correct on that one, unless you are lucky enough to drop on someone with the experience, and that's getting harder to do now. You want someone who was working on these things in the 60s and 70s, much after that and we hit the "just buy a new one" syndrome, and those people are getting on a bit now

ian wrote:
but they take the money and then take no account.


In fairness, though, they've spent the time working on the job, so it's not unreasonable that they get paid for their time. Working with customer-supplied parts is a problem in many different fields, not just car repairs. As long as they're charging for time and it's not an obvious rip-off, there's not much wrong.

Looks like this is a skill you're going to have to pick up for yourself, if you have a spare diff there's not much to lose. I will be interested to hear how you go on, as I noticed mine has quite a bit of play and isn't very quiet.
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welshrover



Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 326

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

two words SAWDUST & OLD TIGHTS Laughing
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Churchill Johnson



Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Posts: 325
Location: Rayleigh Essex

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[
quote="welshrover"]two words SAWDUST & OLD TIGHTS Laughing[/quote] Mine in reply two word's Bomsite Dealer,ive tried it mate and it didn't work.
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Churchill Johnson



Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Posts: 325
Location: Rayleigh Essex

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you do attempt to do the diff again, i would check to see if new bearing's have been fitted, but before dismantling blue the pinion and take photo's of the marking you get, that should tell you if it has been set up correctly.and also check the rolling toque,
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ian



Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, at some stage down the track, I think I'll end up having a crack myself at something I've never done before. Cleaning the gears and using engineers blue to establish the pinion footprint on the crown wheel, sounds like a good start. Also the torque loading, which the manual documents as 6 - 12 lb/ft [ new bearings ], and 4 - 8 lb/ft [original bearings ], as measured with a spring balance and line wound around the universal joint coupling.[ diff out of car ]

Thicker oil and sawdust was a qick fix, I believe, for on-selling a used vehicle . I will not go there.

Both diff companies were given all this information, and new bearings, but one can really have no idea if they followed the set up procedures, or fitted the parts supplied ? Agree, a man should be paid for his time, but it is galling when you are $1,500 down the track, with two change outs, and that distant Stuka is still trailing you everywhere you go.

Ian.
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ian



Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My comment on a previous post that the crown wheel and pinion sets offered by Rootes Spares of Holland, are probably of Chinese manufacture is refuted.. The supplier is annoyed by my supposition, and rightly so.

It was just that all the other Rootes group spare sources simply no longer offered these parts, and it made we wonder about where this company got them from.

' have recently made contact with them, on my seemingly never ending search for a decent diff after major expense has delivered two failures, and I accept his word that his products are not from China.

Ian.
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Kelsham



Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 349
Location: Llandrindod Wells Powys

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried the engineers blue method when rebuilding the diff fitted to my 1931 BSA four wheeler. It is a worm and wheel.

After several tries I found I was unable to get the wheel to get a good transfer of blue from the worm. I suspect this was because the original output bearings were worn. I had marks at the front of the wheel. Nothing across it as expected.

Eventually I took these leading marks as a guide and set it up with shims so it ran freely.

It will probably howl, might even hear it above the V twin engine and straight cut gears.

Regards Kels
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V8 Nutter



Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 494

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You probably won't want to know this, but, an old time bodge was replace the oil with a mixture of treacle and yellow paint. It must be black treacle and it must be yellow paint otherwise it won't work. I don't know how long this treatment lasts, all I know was it kept the axle quiet long enough to put the car through the auctions. The guy who told me this used this method several times, but he died many years ago so there will not be any come backs
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