Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.
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Jim.Walker
Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 1229 Location: Chesterfield
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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I have resisted all attempts over the years to try to persuade me to scrap points for electronic ignition, having had several different "bolt on" systems fail in the past on fleet and customers cars.
Although I was amazed once when a driver brought home a taxi with electronic ignition fitted on which NOTHING worked but the engine! The battery tested out at 4 volts! The charging system having failed.
Just recently though I have fitted a unit (bought on ebay) which replaces only the points. Timing it was not as straight-forward as the seller claimed, nor was there any great difference in performance, though I fancy low speed traction is smoother.
I still carry a set of points and condenser in the glove box though.
Jim. _________________ Quote from my late Dad:- You only need a woman and a car and you have all the problems you
are ever likely to want". Computers had not been invented then! |
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Bitumen Boy
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 1735 Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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The number of times I've seen stories and appeals for help on the 'net from people who've junked reliable points for an electronic black box that doesn't work, I won't be tempted either. I suppose there might be something in it if the diz is hard to get at, but then I probably wouldn't buy such a motor in the first place! Mostly it seems to be people new to classics who get seduced by manufacturer's claims of "modern car" standards of reliability - but when I travel any distance, say down to Cardiff, or even to the big shops a few miles up the valley, it's almost guaranteed that I'll see at least one or two moderns stranded at the roadside with the bonnet up... |
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welshrover
Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Posts: 326
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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this is the first time ive ever had a car stop by the side of the road, and wouldnt you know it its a piece of modern technology that is the problem "
NEVER AGAIN WILL I TRUST MODERN TECHNOLOGY ON ANY OF MY CARS "are people getting so idle now that its too much trouble to take 5 minutes every few months to check the points, etc. electric windows/sunroof/seats to me promote idleness .i mean whats wrong with winding a window by hand .its a good job the older generation weren't scared of a bit of work .could you imagine what the state of this country would be in, being left to some of these workshy buggers weve got now. |
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Jim.Walker
Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 1229 Location: Chesterfield
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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As has often been said, work saving devices only save work for the user - as long as they keep working. But when they fail (as they always do sooner or later) it is just an extra expense and inconvenience.
I put all things such as electric windows (they used to be glass windows ). electric mirrors, aerials, and even central locking in that category. Not to mention things like automatic seat adjustment etc.
Jim. _________________ Quote from my late Dad:- You only need a woman and a car and you have all the problems you
are ever likely to want". Computers had not been invented then! |
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ukdave2002
Joined: 23 Nov 2007 Posts: 4104 Location: South Cheshire
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 6:46 am Post subject: |
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Julian wrote: | Bitumen Boy wrote: |
I think the problem most of us have is lack of the correct kit rather than lack of patience - a cheapy multimeter isn't really quite the thing! |
Indeed, but those yellow ones from Machine Mart and the like for about £20-30 are pretty good, I've got a few and they are all pretty consistent when checked against each other. The only downside to the things is having to dismantle them to change the internal fuse after testing for volts with the thing still set to read amps
I still miss my old Universal AVO Mk8 which dies about 30 years ago
Julian. |
I have a couple of AVO 8's..Picked them up on eBay for a lot less than a half decent digital meter, moving coil meter's give you a better "feel" than digital meters do, you need 2 meters to set up a dynamo control box properly.
I keep a cheapish digital meter in the car tool kit as they will take being knocked about...............................
I do think many folk fit electronic ignitions without understanding why they are doing it or worse still fit them in an attempt to rectify an existing fault
An aftermarket ignition unit offers 1 benefit over conventional points; it collapses the field in the coil more efficiently. Funnily enough I have never seen that on any marketing literature
If you want to fit an electronic ignition, fit one on the units that will be marketed as an "ignition amplifier"; these units retain the points but switch the current to the coil via a power transistor, the units don't need the condenser (the unreliable bit in a conventional ignition) and they can be set up so that if the unit fails; a flick of a switch will switch the electronics off and the condenser back in, i.e you are back to conventional ignition.
Dave |
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welshrover
Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Posts: 326
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:50 am Post subject: |
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thats the type i was using. i know the ones that fit in the distributor arent that good, theres 5 oxford owners i know of used that type ranging from the cheapest to the dearest, accu****to ald** and theyve had problems .
so ill stick to the original way, as the performance was no better nor fuel economy either. it just stopped on the side of the road which points and condensor have never done in all the years of driving classics ,of which ive had about fifteen plus and drive every day, im afraid modern technology doesnt do it for me . |
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Jim.Walker
Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 1229 Location: Chesterfield
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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The reason I fitted the electronic baseplate unit in my distributor to replace the points and condenser (but nothing else) was condenser failure. Followed by the same problem with a new condenser taken out of what looked like an authentic looking package of a well known supplier, that failed after only about 30 miles. Luckily It was on arriving with a bad misfire at a car show with an auto jumble.
I replaced it on site with a boxed old stock Lucas item. The only one I cold find.
That worked fine, but no longer trusting the condensers available nowadays for D6 distributors I subsituted it with the electronic unit and stored the known good condenser and points in the glove box. Just in case.
That was about two years ago and though I have not noticed any of the claimed advantages except for not having to clean/replace or gap the points. The car runs equally well.
Going to keep the points and condenser handy though!
Jim. _________________ Quote from my late Dad:- You only need a woman and a car and you have all the problems you
are ever likely to want". Computers had not been invented then! |
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Julian
Joined: 19 Apr 2010 Posts: 278 Location: Warrington
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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ukdave2002 wrote: |
I have a couple of AVO 8's..Picked them up on eBay for a lot less than a half decent digital meter, moving coil meter's give you a better "feel" than digital meters Dave |
I never thought of ebay, gawd knows why as I buy just about everything from ebay these days!
They do have a better 'feel,' that's for sure, particularly when checking resistance - the extreme sensitivity of the modern 'auto-ranging' jobbies give you all sorts of readings just by catching hold of the probe ends!
Julian. |
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Jim.Walker
Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 1229 Location: Chesterfield
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Dave.
You have underlined the reasons I do not use my digital multi-meter except for cases where accuracy is not too important. Like checking my torch batteries
The first, as you say, is that the moving needle of a moving coil instrument is more confidence making. It cannot be wrong except by needle adjustment or bad connections. Whereas a digital meter has to be taken purely on faith. It is important to know though, that not all needle type meters are moving coil. And are less accurate.
The second and perhaps more practical reason is that you can only measure one thing at a time with a multi-meter. Even one as good as an AVO.
Jim. _________________ Quote from my late Dad:- You only need a woman and a car and you have all the problems you
are ever likely to want". Computers had not been invented then! |
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ukdave2002
Joined: 23 Nov 2007 Posts: 4104 Location: South Cheshire
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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welshrover wrote: | thats the type i was using. i know the ones that fit in the distributor arent that good, theres 5 oxford owners i know of used that type ranging from the cheapest to the dearest, accu****to ald** and theyve had problems .
so ill stick to the original way, as the performance was no better nor fuel economy either. it just stopped on the side of the road which points and condensor have never done in all the years of driving classics ,of which ive had about fifteen plus and drive every day, im afraid modern technology doesnt do it for me . |
I wouldn't be quite so dismissive, there are cases where there electronic ignition is a real advantage, I have one on the Stag because the dwell is very small and the dual points system really isn't that good especially at high revs, its been installed for 6 years now and done about 20k miles.
The quality of the installation of any aftermarket system plays a big part; if the car has a dynamo then the electronic ignition unit will need some protection against the electrical noise and spikes generated by a mechanically regulated system, a simple £2.50 snubber from Maplin will do the job , its frustrating that the manufacturers of the ignition systems don't build this in, or advise that additional protection is needed.
To get better MPG and or performance, fitting the electronic ignition is only the first stage at the very least the plug gaps need to opened up, possibly a better coil added, etc .. but its all going to depend on the specific application.
I'd question why anyone feels the need to put an electronic system on a 4 cylinder 12v "normal" revving vehicle.
Dave |
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welshrover
Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Posts: 326
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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youre right there jim ,there is some nasty condensors about today. and in lucas boxes too usually that nice green coloured box ,usually fakes from one of the usual fake producing countrys .i use condensors from the distributor doctor he supplys them to the historic rallying guys and he really backs his parts. so we'll see what happens with this new condensor he's sent me .fingers crossed. |
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Jim.Walker
Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 1229 Location: Chesterfield
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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ukdave2002 wrote: |
I wouldn't be quite so dismissive, there are cases where there electronic ignition is a real advantage, I have one on the Stag because the dwell is very small and the dual points system really isn't that good especially at high revs, its been installed for 6 years now and done about 20k miles
Dave |
WE operated about 10 DR450 V8 Daimlers for many years.
We never had any problems with the seperate "make" and "break" distributor points and I do know that some drivers boasted of reaching 120MPH on the nearby M1. Unknown to me of course!
However it may well be that the nature of our business generally meant that they would probably be used rather more sedately than your Stag.
Reliability was absolutely paramount, but as we had no ignition problems they were left well alone.
Jim. _________________ Quote from my late Dad:- You only need a woman and a car and you have all the problems you
are ever likely to want". Computers had not been invented then! |
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welshrover
Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Posts: 326
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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like the e type jag and the xk models 140 - 150 mph ellegedly.they were on points ignition too, was there such thing as electronic ignition as we know it back then, the first time id heard of it was round the middle of the eightys , |
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Bitumen Boy
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 1735 Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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ukdave2002 wrote: |
The quality of the installation of any aftermarket system plays a big part; if the car has a dynamo then the electronic ignition unit will need some protection against the electrical noise and spikes generated by a mechanically regulated system, a simple £2.50 snubber from Maplin will do the job , its frustrating that the manufacturers of the ignition systems don't build this in, or advise that additional protection is needed.
Dave |
Dave, can you tell me more about this "snubber" device? I wonder if it may have prevented the problems I've had with a CD player wired into a dynamo system, and if it's that cheap, probably worth a try next time I'm near a Maplins! |
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Jim.Walker
Joined: 27 Dec 2008 Posts: 1229 Location: Chesterfield
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="welshrover"]like the e type jag and the xk models 140 - 150 mph ellegedly.they were on points ignition too, was there such thing as electronic ignition as we know it back then, the first time id heard of it was round the middle of the eightys , [/quote
The first we fitted, which gave so much trouble because the car used to die, but was always mobile again however quickly we got out to it. Was fitted in the mid-seventies.
We only discovered the cause when it died on me and I was on the spot to find the "sparks" had gone missing, Once again it was running before the recovery crew could get out to me. Only two miles away.
The name escapes me but it was the type where a four armed paddle thingie over the cam interrupted an infra red light aimed at a receptor.
We sent it back under complaint. But then a new road through our premises killed the business and we never got a replacement or a fault report from the supplier.
Jim
Hah! The name has just come back to me! It was LUMENITION. _________________ Quote from my late Dad:- You only need a woman and a car and you have all the problems you
are ever likely to want". Computers had not been invented then! |
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