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veteran car rear axle oil seals/bearings
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:23 pm    Post subject: veteran car rear axle oil seals/bearings Reply with quote

I need some ideas and advice.

My 1912 Alldays has a bit of problem with the rear axle. The bronze bearings are rather worn (after 100 years) and they let through far too much oil for the felt/leather oil seals to cope with. The net result is that within about 20 miles of driving the brake shoes are oil fouled and stop working.

I am not keen to dismantle the axle to replace the bearings so I'm looking for ideas of creating more effective oil seals that felt/leather. That said, I may not have much option but to rebuild the axle.

It looks pretty worn - would a new bearing solve the problem?





Any ideas gratefully accepted BTW this is an old picture (of how it looked when I got it. It has a new bearing and is normally much cleaner!
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4100
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Richard

I had a similar challenge with the Morris 8; the axle oil seal is a pad of felt that sits between the halfshaft and the axle case, its not brilliant and they often fail, oiling up the shoes.

I converted to a lip seal by turning a simple collar, that sits in the axle and takes a £2 off the shelf seal.




Don't know if you could do something similar?

Dave
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is brilliant!

I need to keep the bush bearing (the other bearing carries the hub and wheel and therefore the car) but a collar that grub screws on to the [ball] bearing locking collar and holds the modern oil seal in place might just work.

Cheers
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was looking at some pics to try and explain better and realised that someone has tried to solve this one before. I sense some measuring and googling later.




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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought a set of 3" oil seals and they have improved matter immensely but the rear axles do need some professional TLC. Any suggestions of a reliable axle restorer? Just the plain axle bearings and hubs - the internals feel to be in good condition.
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Farmer John



Joined: 18 Feb 2010
Posts: 181
Location: Manawatu NZ

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:42 pm    Post subject: Alldays and Onions Reply with quote

Hi Richard, have been staring at your outer axle, have a couple of thoughts for you.
Rear axle oil rarely reaches the outer end of the axle tube, so have a look at the oil level at the diff with a view to maintaining a lower level. Does it have a dipstick or a level plug or two? The level can be half an inch down from a level plug, or midway between the two marks on a stick.
If there is a breather keep it clean. Actually there will be a breather somewhere.
The bronze bush in the axle tube does not seem to do anything that the hub bearing is not doing. This raises the possibility that it as been an oil control device, you know the type with a very coarse internal thread to "wind out" any oil which gets to it. That type of seal can run dry forever, which is what you want in that situation. You could cut the bush to take an "O" ring which would seal against oil but not last long if dry.
Dave's solution on his Morris is a good one so long as the axle tube interior is accurate and there is a machined surface on the axle. The Alldays and Onions might not have space between axle o.d. and axle tube i.d. for a seal.
Consider fitting a sealed bearing if you need a new bearing anyway. A modern sealant on the axle taper and on the inner and outer surfaces of the bearing will take care of any other seepage.
Just some food for thought Richard. Love the car, really admire anyone who takes on such a vehicle.
(Should have said earlier, rear hub bearings are greased just as front ones.)

John
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,
Those photos are of the axle as I found it and shortly thereafter I fitted new, sealed bearings. I was amazed to be able to drop in to a engineering supply shop and get the bearings off the shelf!

I take your point about oil levels. There isn't a drain plug nor a level plug nor a dipstick (apart from me that is) but I have a plan to drain the oil which is 140 transmission oil wih 250 grade and be more careful about the quantity. Much cheaper than rebuilding an axle that appears to be in good enough condition.

Thanks for the ideas
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Things move on!

I realised that even with new bearings, new modern plastic oil seals and felt/leather seals the oil was getting through too easily so I've got the axle dismantled (the halfshaft tubes came off the diff quite easily) and will be taken to the fabricator's for new phosphor-bronze bushings.

I noticed that the taper fit between hubs and halfshafts is not perfect so we'll look at ways to improve that so between all the work (none of it expensive, I hope) I'll have a relatively oil-tight axle.
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colwyn500



Joined: 21 Oct 2012
Posts: 1745
Location: Nairn, Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember a trick suggested in an Austin Ten Club technical article was to use something like an old piston ring in the hub to space the seal; whether leather or neoprene, so that the lip that bears on the axle casing is moved out slightly to bear on some unworn casing thus improving its sealing ability.
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

colwyn500 wrote:
I remember a trick suggested in an Austin Ten Club technical article was to use something like an old piston ring in the hub to space the seal; whether leather or neoprene, so that the lip that bears on the axle casing is moved out slightly to bear on some unworn casing thus improving its sealing ability.


Hmmm, that could work as well. I'll have to think about how to achieve that.
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colwyn500



Joined: 21 Oct 2012
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Location: Nairn, Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS. Also remember; plenty of soaking in neatsfoot oil (whatever that is!) and gently working the leather (if that it is) to a small radius pointing inwards to the axle to pre-form a lip.
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

colwyn500 wrote:
PS. Also remember; plenty of soaking in neatsfoot oil (whatever that is!) and gently working the leather (if that it is) to a small radius pointing inwards to the axle to pre-form a lip.


That won't work in this case because the leather/felt is pressed between hub and axle tube.

When I removed one of the tubes (nearside iirc) it had plenty of felt fluff that had been worn away and pushed past the bushing!
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The axle tube bushings were worn by over 2mm, ie 1mm+ all round or to be accurate, there was a gap of 2mm at the bottom where the oil could pour through. It was an easy and relatively cheap job to get them replaced and now they look like this




I've also got my hands on high shear filler/sealer which will take up the 0.15mm gap around the bearing (caused by wear) on which the hub rests which should solve the problem. I'll also take care not to overfill the diff!

Maybe I'll have brakes for more than 10 miles at a time!
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