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Jaguar 420 manual with overdrive. The REAL 4 door E-Type?
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Mytocon



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 47
Location: Beds (but not the sleeping type)

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:53 pm    Post subject: Jaguar 420 manual with overdrive. The REAL 4 door E-Type? Reply with quote

From THIS:-


to THIS:-


In a CONSIDERABLE amount of time and even more money!
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Mytocon



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 47
Location: Beds (but not the sleeping type)

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back in 1976, I would visit a farm in Lilley, Hertfordshire run by a lovely old farmer, Mr Adams and his son Paul. Mr Adams had recently bought a Daimler Sovereign XJ6 and thus wanted to sell his Jaguar 420. A manual with overdrive car in gunmetal (Opalescent Silver Grey?) it was a thing of absolute beauty to me and when offered it for £200 I desperately asked my dad for an advance on my pocket money (I was 12 you see) but as a hardened Rover man he was aware of the reputation of flash Jag drivers ("tight-fisted mans Bentley" Laughing ) and there was a fuel crisis was on. So, instead the 420 was sold to a local man (for £250) who repaid Mr Adams by sticking it in the local paper the following week for £370 Rolling Eyes I was unhappy

But I never forgot the 420.....

To Be Continued.
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badhuis



Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 1390
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Jaguar 420 manual with overdrive. The REAL 4 door E-Type Reply with quote

Mytocon wrote:
From THIS:-
to THIS:-
In a CONSIDERABLE amount of time and even more money!

?
The first pic shows a Daimler Sovereign, the second a Jaguar 420. Different cars, different number plates.

I believe the 420 was the last four door UK car to have (optional) wire wheels.

Not sure what you mean by "real" 4 door E-type. I have a 420 and love it. Smooth, fast, luxury (my car is automatic and has air con).
A friend has an E-type with the same engine but is a very different car. Faster, better road holding, but harder work: steering, stepping in and out of the car.

They might share many components but are very different cars.
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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very smart - two cars or one?

RJ
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Mytocon



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
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Location: Beds (but not the sleeping type)

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick wrote:
Very smart - two cars or one?

RJ


Much more than 2, I thought I'd break it down into a few posts rather than one ultra long diatribe or ultra short precis missing out too much detail.

The "I never forgot the 420" line was supposed to be a teaser. Laughing


Last edited by Mytocon on Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mytocon



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
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Location: Beds (but not the sleeping type)

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Jaguar 420 manual with overdrive. The REAL 4 door E-Type Reply with quote

badhuis wrote:
The first pic shows a Daimler Sovereign, the second a Jaguar 420. Different cars, different number plates.
....
Not sure what you mean by "real" 4 door E-type. I have a 420 and love it. Smooth, fast, luxury (my car is automatic and has air con).
A friend has an E-type with the same engine but is a very different car. Faster, better road holding, but harder work: steering, stepping in and out of the car.

They might share many components but are very different cars.


It may lose much in translation, but the key to the title was a recent sale I saw of a 420G which described it as a "4 door E-Type". Shocked A 420G is a very different car to a 420 and the 420 is closer in concept to the E Type than the 420G EVER was. The 420G IS a Mk10
So 420 and E Type share the same (basic) short stud 4.2 Litre engine as does the 420 G. However, the E Type and 420 also share the narrow rear IRS system and are closer in wheelbase so the "footprint is similar. The 420G is a limousine style vehicle. The E-Type and 420G DO share the triple carb installation, but that was (I suspect) more down to the 420's MK2 derived bonnet area, not having space for that configuration.

E Type being faster? Down to the better shape, thus aerodynamics, yes. Better roadholding I'd debate strongly. The E Type breaks away more easily at the back and like for like, I doubt that an E Type is appreciably faster round a circuit in the hands of a good driver than a 420. The 420G wouldn't go round most corners, more likely straight through them Laughing

As for the Daimler Sovereign vs Jaguar 420? A grille and two badges with the options (of P.A.S. and overdrive on the manual cars) as standard. That was effectively the changes required. Very good marketing by Sir William Lyons to allow Daimler customers to have something to buy between the Majestic and the V8 250. Cool


Last edited by Mytocon on Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mytocon



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, from 1976 to 2007.....
Having gone through a transition of work, marriage, children, self employment, redundancy etc I have little money for buying old cars and instead buy cars needing work. £250 bought me this:-
Wife and daughter were extra Wink

and £200 bought me this:-


A significant amount of work was required but it MIGHT just be "doable" It was a genuine 37,000 mile Daimler Sovereign 420 automatic. Left in a field for 20 + years it was surprisingly (amazingly!) solid. Within 2 hours of getting it home, it was running on all six and would even select gears. Very Happy

The XJ6 (still as you'll note a Daimler) was sold and the money earmarked for the restoration of the Sovereign.

To Be Continued........


Last edited by Mytocon on Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mytocon



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come 2008, things were "different", not for the better....
My parents both elderly and suffering now from the associated problems of dementia were talking up a large proportion of my siblings and my spare time and as we all had families as well, the hobbies took a (justified) back seat. The view from their back window was:-

and this meant things had to be re-assessed.
Meanwhile, I started a new job.
The first year was good and to celebrate, a bonus was given to all employees This bonus co-incided with an EBay advertisment for a Daimler Sovereign 420, not TOO far from home. What if it were better than mine (could it indeed be worse Shocked )? Would it make sense to break up the first 420 and use the best parts to make one good car?

Only one way to find out....


Last edited by Mytocon on Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mytocon



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the garden clearence already well under way, my trip to Harlow was a little bit of light relief. I was greeted with a car that was in a barn under dust covers but ran and had been off the road for around 5 years due only to the owners love of Jaguars, meaning his XJ12 , XJS etc got priority. Hard negotiations were not my strong point at that time Embarassed In addition to being a very pleasent shade of Burgundy ( a colour I suspect was not the original as the paint under the bonnet appeared to be Opalescent Maroon) it had wire wheels. My wife was VERY impressed with cars that had wire wheels (and indeed unlike my existing 420, a shiny coat of paint) so I paid the man his £1800 phoned the insurance company and drove to my MOT station Cool
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Mytocon



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A pass required only two steering joints, a pair of horns and a headlamp bulb (all except the bulb sourced from the original car, I bought a new bulb Laughing ). 2009 meant a few shakedown issues but it was a quite pleasant show season, Luton Festival of Transport, The Ace Cafe, Knebworth, Old Warden, all visited an enjoyed in my OWN 420!However, close as it was to my "first love" (the manual with overdrive gunmetal car that I saw in 1976) it wasn't QUITE there.

To make things much worse, my parents failing health meant that by the end of the year, everything (car wise ) went back on hold. Crying or Very sad
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gresham flyer



Joined: 06 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Jaguar 420 is nothing like an E Type. A Jaguar or Daimler 420 was the test bed for the XJ6 series 1 which was introduced in 1968.
The rear suspension is from the S Type.
The dashboard has the padded surround previewing the XJ^ look.
The 4.2 engine with ribbed cam covers is XJ6.

Like a lot of Bill Lyons cars they were all stop gaps just to feed the American market.
The MK2,S Type,MK10,240,340 and the 420 were all parts bin cars,no money was available to develop these cars,money was then allocated to the new project the XJ6.

This is my Daimler Soveriegn 420 manual 1967 example,one previous owner,65,000 genuine miles. The manual`s were rare cars.
Completely original apart from a respray 10 years ago.

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Mytocon



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They were rare, but they appear to be less so nowadays Another manual Daimler 420 The Daimler lasted a year longer than the Jaguar, as the XJ Sovereign wasn't launched until around one selling season later than the Jaguar version.
As for Mk2, MK10 etc being parts bin cars? Laughing Not exactly, the MK10 was a direct replacement for the Mk9 (and the reason behind Rover making improvements to their P5 in 1963) and like the MK2 used a lot of bought in componants (from Lucas for example) a tradition that never stopped (X-Type anyone? Cool ), nor was it unique to Jaguar.

The 420 was the shape that the S-Type was likely intended to have been if the time and (as you may have been alluding to) additional cash had been made available in '63 but instead a mild change to the MK2 front end was settled on. The 420 finally arrived when Lyons decided it was another gap that he wanted plugged (as opposed to the market saw) and was that a good decision? The 420 was Jaguars best selling saloon throughout it's life, by production figures.

As for the 420 being a test bed for the XJ range, that's true, and again nothing unusual in that but it had the smooth cam covers to start with, a Mk10 (or by then 420G) styled front end etc so that again points towards it's existance being more thn just a test bed for the XJ.[/url]
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Mytocon



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gresham flyer wrote:
The rear suspension is from the S Type.


What was the difference between S-Type and E-Type rear suspension? I alway thought they were basically the same, bar the obvious detail differences such as diff ratios.

The 420 had a standard LSD in the early days, which was presumably an option elsewhere Question
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gresham flyer



Joined: 06 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you met Norman Dewis or Paul Skilliter or read their account of the Jaguar empire in the 1950`s/1960`s.
If you have then they will tell you that from the days of the first Jaguar MK1 through to the last (MK2) the 340,William Lyons did not want to spend money on developing the cars properly.
He wanted a new concept car to take on the small car market.
The MK1 had a rear track that was too narrow.
The MK2 had a wider rear track to match the front,but during the design period the rear wings where wedged apart with lumps of wood,the car was then sent to Pressed Steel and they were told to built the bodyshell with wider back wings.
The front suspension was designed by Bob Knight but suffered from vibration so Norman and Bob tried different lumps of rubber to cushion it out.
The Daimler V8 2.5ltr was a stop gap because dealers wanted a Daimler to sell,so a MK2 was badge engineered,but shelved a few years later because of internal politics.
It out performed the Jaguar 240.
My own Daimler V8 2.5 ltr which is modified out performs a 3.4 MK2.

The S Type was a stop gap until the 420 came along.
They were building cars to supply the American market,Norman tells how the European market was never thought of in William Lyons eyes,"Don`t worry about Europe " he would say to Norman.
There was so much penny pinching going on all the time,that is why they never designed a proper sports pedal box so you could heel and toe,they were sports saloons after all.
I arrange factory visits to Jaguar,Martin Robey,XK Engineering,JD Classics etc etc and have done for many years.
It is after talking to the horses mouth so to speak that you know the truth behind Jaguar.

Gresham Flyer
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Mytocon



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I have good contacts as well, and I'll add Dave Davenport and Nigel Thorley to the mix as i'm sure you know them too.
You'll also know the dropping of the SP250 (and it's E-Type beating ways) was the REAL driving force behind the V8 250, and the dropping of the manual option on THAT (as quickly as it was done) was down to it out performing the 3.8 in the right hands. The very unbalanced look of the 2+2 E-Type was also down to Lyons focus on the main money supplier. He was a rare breed, a competant engineer, naturally gifted stylist financially astute and highly focussed. Not known for suffering fools gladly or for vanity either.

Anyway, the 420 was the nearest thing in the range to a 4 door E-Type, nobodys come up with any valid argument against that, Certainly more so than the Mk10.

How's your P5B getting on?
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