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Drum Brakes
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1963EJ



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 4
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:21 am    Post subject: Drum Brakes Reply with quote

My 1963 Holden has drum brakes all round. The fronts had always been a problem pulling and shuddering. I have had the drums machined and fitted new shoes and adjusted them up correctly. The shoes are the correct fit in the machined drums.

They are now working really well when cold. Once they heat up I am getting a bit of shudder, nowhere as bad as before but still annoying. No longer pulling to any great extent. My question is, why would the shudder only happen after driving for a while and the brakes warm up?
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Dave

Sydney,Australia
1953 Morris Minor & 1963 EJ Holden
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Kenham



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 209
Location: Kent

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello, don't know about the hot and cold side but did you have the drums skimmed on the hub or off. I skimmed CF bedford drums off the hubs and then had to do again on the hubs to get good results. Ken
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dave,

You may find that they lose the shudder once they've bedded in. Perhaps a little roughing of the leading quarter of the linings would help to bed them quicker.

Peter
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Ashley



Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 1426
Location: Near Stroud, Glos

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drum brakes do tend to shudder whatever you do, always did. The trick is to drive, keeping them in reserve for emergencies only. We get so used to modern cars we forget we have to make allowances for old ones.

My Bentley has superb brakes up to 60mph, after that they fade or judder or both and they're a lot better than any other car of their age. My Bristol 400's were hopeless and juddered with everything new and a servo.

My guess is that the Holden's brakes will be okay if used as I suggest, but no more.
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petermeachem



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 358
Location: Chichester Sussex

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
tend to shudder whatever you do, always did
Really? I've have plenty of cars with drums and never had this problem, maybe I'm not sensitive enough
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D4B



Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 2083
Location: Hampshire UK

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The drum brakes all round on my Peugeot D4B van don't shudder..... but they do take constant maintenance to get through each MOT test ~ nightmare
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4100
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an old Ferodo brake catalogue, in it they list shims designed to be fitted between the shoe and lining when being fitted to a drum that has been skimmed, logical as the radius will have changed, but I have never seen anyone do it in practice!

Dave
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kevin2306



Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1359
Location: nr Llangollen, north wales

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poor quality friction material can cause shuddering as well in my experience.
another issue I have had with a vitara I used to greenlane with, was a cheap set of shoes not being the correct shape, they were deformed and caused all sorts of strange effects.
Careful lubrication of all working parts of the system and accurate setting up and adjustment also helps.

Kev
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Farmer John



Joined: 18 Feb 2010
Posts: 181
Location: Manawatu NZ

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G,day Dave. The EJ brakes were, I always thought, good brakes, less prone to grabbing and nasty tricks than the EH.
Bear in mind this is an opinion, but really the only change caused by heat will be the performance of the lining material. Presume they are bonded shoes not riveted? Lining materials never seemed as good once they were made for gluing but we do not have much choice any more.
Surfaces must be perfectly clean, if they have ever had grease or oil contamination it might be impossible to stop a shudder.
Inspect linings to ensure contact is even on each shoe and the same on all shoes. Temporarily adjust the front wheel bearings to remove all play and test then revert to proper setting. Find a deserted area where you can test with the back brakes clamped off to confirm the problem is at the front.
Tighten the backing-plate bolts and wheel cylinder fixing bolts.
Things to try next:- swap shoes from side to side, individually or the whole set (unless the were matched to the drum). Swap hub/drum assembly from side to side, swap wheels around front to rear. As silly as it sounds the wheels are the most likely fix.
There are other checks to make, which we can discuss, but have a go at the above and see how it goes.

John
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1963EJ



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 4
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:43 pm    Post subject: Thanks Reply with quote

Thanks for the feedback. I am thinking its definitely the shoes themselves. The brakes used to shudder dreadfully, so I machined the drums but kept the shoes. Shudder reduced but not eliminated. So I fitted a brand new set of shoes. Shudder completely gone, worked beautifully. Then after a few hundred miles shudder started to reoccur, only very slightly but its there. So it seems that as the shoes wear, even a little, the surface is causing a shudder, and it becomes apparent as the surface gets hot.
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Dave

Sydney,Australia
1953 Morris Minor & 1963 EJ Holden
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alanb



Joined: 10 Sep 2012
Posts: 516
Location: Berkshire.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some years ago my 1955 standard 8 developed a nasty judder under light braking, it turned out to be a broken return spring on the shoes, could you have a weak or broken return spring causing you the problem?.
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PAUL BEAUMONT



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 1281
Location: Barnsley S. Yorks

PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chamfering the leading edge of the linings can sometimes help remove brake shudder. Also make sure that all the steering joints are sound as any movement can magnify ant shudder created by the brakes.
Keep us posted!

Paul
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Phil - Nottingham



Joined: 01 Jan 2008
Posts: 1252
Location: Nottingham

PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the above but worn/stretched pull off springs will cause this - our 1958 S2 Land Rover was transformed for less than a couple of pounds for new springs
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Peter_L



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2680
Location: New Brunswick. Canada.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A point that was repeated, ad-nauseam, by a friend of my father's who was a stickler for engineering detail.

"Fact : Machining drum brakes creates an interior diameter greater than what the brake shows were designed for. No amount of fiddling or adjusting changes the facts"

We could see his point, but was he 100% correct ?
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1480
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To do the job properly the shoes should be radiused to the new diameter by grinding.

Art
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