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1963EJ
Joined: 31 Jul 2013 Posts: 4 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:21 am Post subject: Drum Brakes |
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My 1963 Holden has drum brakes all round. The fronts had always been a problem pulling and shuddering. I have had the drums machined and fitted new shoes and adjusted them up correctly. The shoes are the correct fit in the machined drums.
They are now working really well when cold. Once they heat up I am getting a bit of shudder, nowhere as bad as before but still annoying. No longer pulling to any great extent. My question is, why would the shudder only happen after driving for a while and the brakes warm up? _________________ Dave
Sydney,Australia
1953 Morris Minor & 1963 EJ Holden |
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Kenham
Joined: 12 Mar 2012 Posts: 209 Location: Kent
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Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Hello, don't know about the hot and cold side but did you have the drums skimmed on the hub or off. I skimmed CF bedford drums off the hubs and then had to do again on the hubs to get good results. Ken |
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peter scott
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 7118 Location: Edinburgh
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Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:46 am Post subject: |
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Hi Dave,
You may find that they lose the shudder once they've bedded in. Perhaps a little roughing of the leading quarter of the linings would help to bed them quicker.
Peter _________________ http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon |
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Ashley
Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 1426 Location: Near Stroud, Glos
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Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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Drum brakes do tend to shudder whatever you do, always did. The trick is to drive, keeping them in reserve for emergencies only. We get so used to modern cars we forget we have to make allowances for old ones.
My Bentley has superb brakes up to 60mph, after that they fade or judder or both and they're a lot better than any other car of their age. My Bristol 400's were hopeless and juddered with everything new and a servo.
My guess is that the Holden's brakes will be okay if used as I suggest, but no more. |
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petermeachem
Joined: 23 Sep 2013 Posts: 358 Location: Chichester Sussex
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Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | tend to shudder whatever you do, always did | Really? I've have plenty of cars with drums and never had this problem, maybe I'm not sensitive enough |
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D4B
Joined: 28 Dec 2010 Posts: 2083 Location: Hampshire UK
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Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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The drum brakes all round on my Peugeot D4B van don't shudder..... but they do take constant maintenance to get through each MOT test ~ nightmare |
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ukdave2002
Joined: 23 Nov 2007 Posts: 4104 Location: South Cheshire
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Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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I have an old Ferodo brake catalogue, in it they list shims designed to be fitted between the shoe and lining when being fitted to a drum that has been skimmed, logical as the radius will have changed, but I have never seen anyone do it in practice!
Dave |
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kevin2306
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1359 Location: nr Llangollen, north wales
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Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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Poor quality friction material can cause shuddering as well in my experience.
another issue I have had with a vitara I used to greenlane with, was a cheap set of shoes not being the correct shape, they were deformed and caused all sorts of strange effects.
Careful lubrication of all working parts of the system and accurate setting up and adjustment also helps.
Kev |
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Farmer John
Joined: 18 Feb 2010 Posts: 181 Location: Manawatu NZ
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Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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G,day Dave. The EJ brakes were, I always thought, good brakes, less prone to grabbing and nasty tricks than the EH.
Bear in mind this is an opinion, but really the only change caused by heat will be the performance of the lining material. Presume they are bonded shoes not riveted? Lining materials never seemed as good once they were made for gluing but we do not have much choice any more.
Surfaces must be perfectly clean, if they have ever had grease or oil contamination it might be impossible to stop a shudder.
Inspect linings to ensure contact is even on each shoe and the same on all shoes. Temporarily adjust the front wheel bearings to remove all play and test then revert to proper setting. Find a deserted area where you can test with the back brakes clamped off to confirm the problem is at the front.
Tighten the backing-plate bolts and wheel cylinder fixing bolts.
Things to try next:- swap shoes from side to side, individually or the whole set (unless the were matched to the drum). Swap hub/drum assembly from side to side, swap wheels around front to rear. As silly as it sounds the wheels are the most likely fix.
There are other checks to make, which we can discuss, but have a go at the above and see how it goes.
John |
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1963EJ
Joined: 31 Jul 2013 Posts: 4 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:43 pm Post subject: Thanks |
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Thanks for the feedback. I am thinking its definitely the shoes themselves. The brakes used to shudder dreadfully, so I machined the drums but kept the shoes. Shudder reduced but not eliminated. So I fitted a brand new set of shoes. Shudder completely gone, worked beautifully. Then after a few hundred miles shudder started to reoccur, only very slightly but its there. So it seems that as the shoes wear, even a little, the surface is causing a shudder, and it becomes apparent as the surface gets hot. _________________ Dave
Sydney,Australia
1953 Morris Minor & 1963 EJ Holden |
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alanb
Joined: 10 Sep 2012 Posts: 516 Location: Berkshire.
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Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Some years ago my 1955 standard 8 developed a nasty judder under light braking, it turned out to be a broken return spring on the shoes, could you have a weak or broken return spring causing you the problem?. _________________ old tourer
Morris 8 two seater |
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PAUL BEAUMONT
Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Posts: 1281 Location: Barnsley S. Yorks
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Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Chamfering the leading edge of the linings can sometimes help remove brake shudder. Also make sure that all the steering joints are sound as any movement can magnify ant shudder created by the brakes.
Keep us posted!
Paul |
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Phil - Nottingham
Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 1252 Location: Nottingham
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Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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All the above but worn/stretched pull off springs will cause this - our 1958 S2 Land Rover was transformed for less than a couple of pounds for new springs _________________ Rover P2
Rover P4
Rover P5 & P5B
Land Rover S2 & S3
Morris Mini Traveller Mk2 |
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Peter_L
Joined: 10 Apr 2008 Posts: 2680 Location: New Brunswick. Canada.
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Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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A point that was repeated, ad-nauseam, by a friend of my father's who was a stickler for engineering detail.
"Fact : Machining drum brakes creates an interior diameter greater than what the brake shows were designed for. No amount of fiddling or adjusting changes the facts"
We could see his point, but was he 100% correct ? |
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47Jag
Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 1480 Location: Bothwell, Scotland
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Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:10 am Post subject: |
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To do the job properly the shoes should be radiused to the new diameter by grinding.
Art |
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