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Double Six Misfire
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peppiB



Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 686
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:44 pm    Post subject: Double Six Misfire Reply with quote

Friend of mine has a series III VDP Daimler double 6 and doesn't know one end of a screwdriver from the handle. He has owned this car for 19 months and spent a fortune on bodywork and resprays. However, the car doesn't run. He has had it to 3 'specialists' in the area and all have come up with different solutions and he has spent quite a bit of money on repairs which have done b..... all to solve the problem.
The car misfires, does not run smoothly, has oily/sooty plugs after a very short time (like a few minutes) and is totally not driveable. He has renewed (on recommendation from dealers) ignition system , fuel pump, and had all the carb seals changed all to no effect (his wife won't let me too close in case I have another heart attack and she doesn't want to be responsible for that Rolling Eyes ) but he keeps phoning me and asking for suggestions

Has anyone any ideas (stuck auto choke??) as to what can be causing the problem?? I can't get near enough to have a play myself, but he is throwing hundreds of pounds at garages all to no avail
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did the car always do this in the time since your friend bought it?
What work was done to the engine prior to the problem?

Peter
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Old Wrench



Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 226
Location: Essex and France

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like an almost insoluble problem. I would suggest your friend joins here, however from what you say, his lack of hands-on knowledge would make this fairly pointless.

Sorry to appear to sound negative, however, without some basic input, then pretty impossible to make any useful suggestions.

On an aside, continues to amaze me how people with zero knowledge of automotive engineering buy old cars and then find themselves at the mercy of supposed restorers and the like and surprise surprise, find themselves spending a fortune, when it would be much more cost-effective to buy a well restored example in the very first place!

The Jaguar V12 has always been a troubled engine from its earliest days: based on an early 1950s putative racing engine to replace the XK engine in long distance sports-racing events.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_V12_engine

When first introduced in 1971, Jaguar were already in trouble, as we know, when Jag were acquired by what was then still BMC in 1966. And BMC had also entered its troubled era.
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roverdriver



Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 1210
Location: 100 miles from Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sooty plugs = too rich a mixture.

I would be checking float needles and seats first. Next I would ascertain if running without any air filters and induction plumbing makes any difference. If an improvement, however slight, I would further investigate carbies for reasons that they are providing too much fuel.
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peppiB



Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 686
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter - no work had been done on the engine prior to this problem. He bought the car in the west country, drove it to Tyneside without problem and used it for a few months. The car went for respray and new headlining, came home and was parked outside unused for months then he decided rust was starting to come through again so off to a different body shop. That is when he first noticed a misfire. He called RAC and chap had no idea. He took it to a Jaguar specialist who did £700 of work (he is not clear what) but it made very little difference. If someone takes the plugs out and cleans them for him (he can't do that himself) car will run about 5 miles then splutters and misfires again.
Another garage told him he had an oil leak and charged a substantial amount to change 'oil pipes' (no idea which)

Old Wrench - as you say he wouldn't have a clue to be able to participate on here. I recently had to dissuade him from buying a 1948 open top Singer as he would struggle to find any garage capable of looking after it

I only asked as he phones me and bends my ear for ideas, but as his wife won't let me near the car it is a problem.

I used to work on his cars and keep them running but since heart attack his wife reckons I am too unwell, hence he is at the mercy of garages.
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's good to hear that the problem was not the result of someone's attentions.

I know you are seeing oily and sooty plugs but just for the sake of elimination it might be worth replacing the rotor arm with an old one or a new red one.

http://www.jaguardriverforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=105

Peter
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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peppiB wrote:
...He bought the car in the west country, drove it to Tyneside without problem and used it for a few months. The car went for respray and new headlining, came home and was parked outside unused for months then he decided rust was starting to come through again so off to a different body shop. That is when he first noticed a misfire....


mice nested, and now blocking, one of the air filter boxes?

I'm not too au fait with fuel injected cars tbh.

RJ
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Old Wrench



Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 226
Location: Essex and France

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick wrote:
peppiB wrote:
...He bought the car in the west country, drove it to Tyneside without problem and used it for a few months. The car went for respray and new headlining, came home and was parked outside unused for months then he decided rust was starting to come through again so off to a different body shop. That is when he first noticed a misfire....


mice nested, and now blocking, one of the air filter boxes?

I'm not too au fait with fuel injected cars tbh.

RJ


The earlier cars had sidedraft Strombergs, Rick; the OP did state carbs had been looked at. However, Strombergs always were something of a pig's ear.

Solex sidedrafts as used on Renault rally cars were much better, however, as might be expected, inferior to the ubiquitous Weber.

I once had to rebuild a Renault R1134 Gordini, rally car which the insane Irish owner had managed to insert into a ditch which turned out to be a large deep drainage dyke and he continued on the side until, err sort of prevented by a huge old oak tree..........
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peppiB



Joined: 30 Jun 2008
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Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A new distributor cap, rotor arm, leads have been fitted, but no improvement.

Rick - the car has been into a jaguar specialist and allegedly they replaced the air filters

Roverdriver - sooty plugs and too much fuel is the reason I asked about the auto choke being stuck on. I am no expert (not even a novice) on these 'modern' electronic things but I think there is a module controlling the choke and wondered if it was failing and extra fuel/less air was being continuously allowed.

damned frustrating not to be able to get to the car myself, but no doubt the owner will be phoning me again this evening to relate more tales of woe.
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Rick
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old Wrench wrote:
...
The earlier cars had sidedraft Strombergs, Rick; the OP did state carbs had been looked at. However, Strombergs always were something of a pig's ear.
...


Indeed so - I had an early XJ12 on 4x Strombergs and rebuilt them. I just glanced at the OP and saw the car referred to as a Series 3 - which were injected. I assume it's therefore S1, or as it seems to have an auto choke (AED), early S2 as S1 XJ12s had a manual choke arrangement.

I remember fiddling with the AED on a Series 1 4.2 I had, very finicky indeed and quite possibly the source of the problem(s).

RJ
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peppiB



Joined: 30 Jun 2008
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Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Rick. The car was registered in 1982 and is VDP spec.

Owner told me it was a series III but given his lack of prowess with cars he could be mistaken. I am not into Jags so can't recognise one series from another (although at 1 time I did own a 1986 Sovereign)
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Old Wrench



Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 226
Location: Essex and France

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curiouser and curiouser....... said the Walrus to the Carpenter.

"Series 3 XJ12 and Daimler Double Six cars used the Lucas CEI system until the end of production in 1992."

Check my earlier post on Jaguar V12 Engine.

Therefore, one must question where and how the "He has renewed (on recommendation from dealers) ignition system , fuel pump, and had all the carb seals changed all to no effect" the following happened?

However, assuming this car is running the Lucas PI system, which was based on the ubiquitous Bosch D Jetronic.

Excess rich mixture could be caused by:

A. Coolant Temperature Sender: not the sender which operates the dashboard temp gauge, but the sender which inputs to the ECU.

B. Ambient Air Temperature Sender:

C. The ECU (ECM) itself:

Then it could be various bits; for example:

""If you're getting rich running and fouling check to see if the pressure regulators mounted on both ends of the fuel rail are leaking fuel into the manifold via the vacuum line which connects between the reg and the manifold. With the engine idling pull off the hose at the reg, the engine speed will increase with the extra air entering the manifold through this pipe so block it with something. After running the engine for a minute or so you may notice the presence of some petrol coming from the regulator vacuum connection. If so replace it. They are not the same unit despite similar looks.""

Here is a good starting reference point:

http://www.jag-lovers.org/books/xj-s/07-FuelEFI.html#DigitalP

However, cars exported to America tend to have different parts to conform to the US "Smog Control" regs.

In order to properly diagnose fuel injection systems the starting point is to always read the OBD (On Board Diagnostics) codes.

Remembering, the code read outs will NOT pinpoint the absolute fault, but point you in the correct direction.

In my humble experience and sadly, the increasing complexity of motor car ignition/injection systems has meant a rash of " Experts" breaking out, who are fundamentally useless and resort to the old gag of changing everything in sight and hope........

Proper diagnosis requires, today, a core knowledge of electronics and more particularly, digital electronics which few cowboys running mobile "Tuning and Fault Diagnosis " business have.

The ONLY person I now have knowledge of who actually knows what he is doing, is Peter Remmington, in Kings Lynn, Norfolk.

Peter is an extremely helpful and nice bloke, who will even happily discuss your problem on the telephone, provided, of course, you have some basic comprehension of the system and possible fault/s.

http://www.remmington.info/
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peppiB wrote:
A new distributor cap, rotor arm, leads have been fitted, but no improvement.



The fact that the rotor arm is new is what I think is potentially problematic. New black ones can be conductive when warmed up.

That's why I suggest fitting an old rotor or a new red one that doesn't have the conductivity.
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peppiB



Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 686
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great information there. Thank you.

When he phones I will try and ascertain when his wife will be safely out of the way so I can go and look for myself

As for new ignition stuff I bought a new distributor for 1 of my cars. It worked for about a year before giving trouble. When the distributor failed on another car I managed to get a 40 year old NOS unit. I gave it a light oil before fitting and it sprang to life first turn of the key
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ka



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 600
Location: Orkney.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This may be a negative comment, but if he cannot even complete a simple task as changing/removing spark plugs, then one has to ask the question, why does he wish to own a classic that by definition requires at least some input from the owner.
I would suggest he books the vehicle in with someone competent, recommended by a Classic owner in his area, or sell it to someone who can maintain it, and buy a modern, sorry, but if you do not know what a jigsaw is, why would you buy a box of them?
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