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Miken



Joined: 24 Dec 2012
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:01 pm    Post subject: Running in Reply with quote

I will shortly (hopefully) be starting up my pre war Morris engine . Rebuilt with new bores and bearings.
Ive been looking up running in and am slightly confused.
Common thoughts these days seem to be to run a new engine very hard for the first 30 minutes or 20 miles to bed the rings in.
This sounds quite alarmig and is cotrary to everything Ive ever thought about running a rebuilt engine.
Discuss please.
Also Im planning on using a running in oil. Good idea or not?
The idea being to do the first 20 miles with the running in oil, then again up to 500 then change to SAE 30 and continue to 1000. then change every 1000
Thanks
Mike
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mike,

I would suggest very gentle initial use minimising the pressure on bearing surfaces. That said use the cheapest rubbish oil you can find for the first 1000 miles.

Peter
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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter scott wrote:
Hi Mike,

I would suggest very gentle initial use minimising the pressure on bearing surfaces. That said use the cheapest rubbish oil you can find for the first 1000 miles.

Peter


agreed, gently gently, thrashing an engine may (?) suit a modern engine, I don't think it'd do an ancient Morris engine any favours.

RJ
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goneps



Joined: 18 Jun 2013
Posts: 601
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gently, gently is NOT the way to go. Nor is thrashing a new engine. The sensible course is to find a regime that will allow the rings to bed in without placing undue strain on new bearings.

The example I always refer to is that of light aircraft piston engines, which have an extensive history of well over half a century with accurate and detailed documentation. After overhauling a Continental or Lycoming (many times more expensive than the cost of overhauling a car engine) the oil used is essentially equivalent to running-in oil, which provides lubrication but not so much as to prevent the various components from bedding in. Furthermore the pilot is instructed to run the engine harder than normal to complete the process. This involves using full throttle at take-off (the less powerful types wouldn't get off the ground otherwise), and cruising at higher revs than normal for the first 50 hours or so. Oil consumption gradually decreases as a result of this treatment.

Best conditions for running in a Morris Eight motor would be varied back-road going with plenty of variation in throttle and revs, but slogging at low revs should be avoided at all costs. Revving easily on a moderate throttle through the gears will certainly do no harm, and will allow the rings to break through the oil film to bed in. This does NOT mean a flat-out blast! Constant-speed motorway-type cruising is not suitable for running in car engines.

High-quality, high-additive 'slippery' oils such as Penrite are not suitable for running in. Running-in oil will aid the bedding-in process, and should be used for the first 500 miles on a 'new' motor.

If the pre-war Morris engine in question is an Eight (I've no experience with any other model), then it's also vital to re-torque the head correctly and frequently. These engines are not well engineered in respect of head studs, and leaks are likely unless particular attention is paid to this matter. After initial start, run the engine at fast idle just long enough to get the block hot, then immediately switch off and re-torque. You'll get an extra 1/4 to 1/2 turn on all nuts, so you don't want to be driving the car with the gasket so slack. Thereafter take the car on to the road and, as above, let the engine rev freely (but not hard) on a light throttle in second gear before changing up—do this a few times. Driving style should be adapted to keep the engine turning freely on a light throttle at all times.

Re-torque the head with the engine hot after 10, 25, 50, 100, 250, and 500 miles, remembering to back off each nut by half a flat before re-tightening, to break the friction. Consider the re-torquing process completed only when there's no further movement. Yes, this regime is a chore, especially since the dynamo (and horn on earlier Eights) has to be swung out of the way for access, but it works and pays dividends in the long run. Being less attentive in the early stages is a recipe for leaks and disappointment later on.

Richard
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ka



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 600
Location: Orkney.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The previous article reads like we have a member who knows what he is talking about!
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KA

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ka



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
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Location: Orkney.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In parallel to this, I have two interesting examples.
We own an Astra H diesel and bought it new. It began to feel happier, and returned an extra 4 or 5 miles to the gallon when it got to around 80,000 miles. I change the oil every 6000 miles or so, and hope to keep it at this happy state.
At the same time, I had another motorcycle (they should never be kept alone, as they get lonely and enjoy the company), a BMW 1150RT. When it was serviced by the local dealer, it came out of it's 24k service full of synthetic oil, rather than the mineral it had been on. I did ask why, but as usual my reply was, 'thats what BMW tell us to do". MY only logical explanation is, mineral oil to run it in (24K miles) then synthetic to stop it running out. Thoughts?
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Penman



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
goneps wrote
Quote:
Best conditions for running in a Morris Eight motor would be varied back-road going with plenty of variation in throttle and revs, but slogging at low revs should be avoided at all costs. Revving easily on a moderate throttle through the gears will certainly do no harm, and will allow the rings to break through the oil film to bed in. This does NOT mean a flat-out blast! Constant-speed motorway-type cruising is not suitable for running in car engines.


When I have got new cars for instructing I have used that same technique even though car makers nowadays don't give the same running in advice that they used to.
I found that if I did a 200 ml each way trip using the A49 route from Lancs down to Gloucester to visit my mother it meant that pupils had no problems with sticky gear changes and the engines were much more forgiving of too low revs moving off, when compared with other instructors comments about the first couple of weeks in a new car.
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
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Location: Derby

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may have been listening to the wrong people but I always thought that if a newly rebuilt engine was given a hard time it would become an oil burner.
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4100
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These days production engines are spun with electric motors in the factory, for a certain period, hence no running in instruction when you pick up your new modern.

Exchange engines are rare these day, its probably only folk on this forum and taxi drivers in the Canneries who only replace their diesel Mercs when they have done a million miles, that have experience of an exchange engine and the need to run it in Shocked


Dave
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V8 Nutter



Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 587

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I went to work at an engine reconditioners in the mid 70's one of the first engines I rebuilt was a Bedford 330 Diesel. After a couple of weeks the owner came back saying it was burning oil. He told us he had left the engine idling for several hours with cold water running through the system to stop it overheating. He was told take it out make it work, but not too hard, use cheap oil until the oil burning stopped, if it still burnt oil after 6000 miles we would remove the engine and rebuild it at our expence. He came back a few weeks later, at 5000 miles the oil burning had ceased. About 20 years later I happened to meet the owner. The old Bedford was still going and after 250000 it still didn't burn any oil.
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Miken



Joined: 24 Dec 2012
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the replies. The engine is a Minor. The predecessor to the Eight. I like the idea of slackening the head nuts half a turn before re-tightning. Haven't heard that before.
So, I will be using the running in oil. On the big day I will start it up,I expect I may have to tweak the carb and distributor a bit. When warm, tighten the head, then attempt to drive it as soon as possible. I live at the top of a very steep hill so I think a few trips around the block up and down in second gear so not to labour the engine, then drop the oil and repeat. Change to the SAE30 after 500 miles
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colwyn500



Joined: 21 Oct 2012
Posts: 1745
Location: Nairn, Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The little Fiat 500s came with "running-in" stickers on the windscreen, right in front of the driver, so they must have thought it important. It gives the top speed recommended in each gear for the first 450 miles.

The implication is that you should be changing a whole gear earlier than the speedo would suggest in normal running and curtailing top speed at 38mph.

It was a pain to do that but after over 500 miles and having used straight 40SAE for the first 50 or so miles and using 20-50 since, there seem to be no problems, certainly no smoke, the oil is staying strangely clean and there is a definite feel that the engine is now loosening up in a healthy way.

Richard's advice is brilliantly explained and thought-out. The cylinder head nut process is as I have seen detailed for my side-valve Austin. The wry footnote being that just about the time you have the head fully torqued and settled it will probably be time to take it off again!
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lowdrag



Joined: 10 Apr 2009
Posts: 1585
Location: Le Mans

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not in the same league really, but I have just finished running in - for the second time - my Jaguar engine. My Dad had a garage back in the 50s and always told me to use common sense; no labouring the engine, keeping the revs to about 2,000 and increasing in increments of 500 rpm every 500 miles, and not worrying about revving it a bit if not under load, like downhill. An oil and filter change at 500, then 1,500, the 2,500 and normal service intervals after that. I used running in oil up to 500 then 20/50 thereafter. It worked the last time around with the Jaguar and she used no oil for 100,000 miles. Not sure it'll be the same this time around, but we'll see. I don't drive so "spiritedly" nowadays!
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goneps



Joined: 18 Jun 2013
Posts: 601
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miken wrote:
I like the idea of slackening the head nuts half a turn before re-tightning. Haven't heard that before.

Not half a turn, Miken—half a FLAT, ie. 1/12 of a turn. Slackening by half a turn is way over the top, and probably a recipe for warping the head. Just back off the torque wrench slightly to break the friction, then re-tension. This is not be necessary the first time because the nuts will be fairly slack.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that, compared with such exotic devices as Jaguars, Minors and Eights are gutless little things with three-speed gearboxes, which circumscribes how the motor can be treated, new or otherwise. Better by far to rev more in the lower gears than slog the engine by changing up too early. In any case, with the relatively short stroke of a small motor piston speeds are proportionally low for any given revs.

Richard
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Miken



Joined: 24 Dec 2012
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

goneps wrote:


After initial start, run the engine at fast idle just long enough to get the block hot, then immediately switch off and re-torque. You'll get an extra 1/4 to 1/2 turn on all nuts, so you don't want to be driving the car with the gasket so slack. Thereafter take the car on to the road and, as above, let the engine rev freely (but not hard) on a light throttle in second gear before changing up—do this a few times. Driving style should be adapted to keep the engine turning freely on a light throttle at all times.

Re-torque the head with the engine hot after 10, 25, 50, 100, 250, and 500 miles, remembering to back off each nut by half a flat before re-tightening, to break the friction. Consider the re-torquing process completed only when there's no further movement. Yes, this regime is a chore, especially since the dynamo (and horn on earlier Eights) has to be swung out of the way for access, but it works and pays dividends in the long run. Being less attentive in the early stages is a recipe for leaks and disappointment later on.

Richard

This was excellent advice. I started the new engine today and by the time I had faffed around setting the carb and obtaining a tickover the engine was nice and warm. I found, as predicted above, that the head nuts required tightening. I removed the dynamo and went for a trip round the block, about one mile. The nuts required a further tweak (20 ft lb). After 5 miles I did it again and again at 10 miles.
My battery is now on charge overnight and I hope to do a few more miles tomorrow. I will have to fit the dyno sometime but it certainly makes re torquing easier with out it.
Mike
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