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Rover P4 - 200Tdi conversion
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Calum



Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 100
Location: Midgley, W Yorks

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:15 pm    Post subject: Rover P4 - 200Tdi conversion Reply with quote

I have had this since just before Christmas - I have wanted it for a while and it will be used by my girlfriend as her daily drive once it is back on the road (that is, unless she gets a job with a company car when she finishes uni, when I shall claim the P4 back for myself! Laughing ). I bought it off a friend who bought it with the original engine (which I have) and he promptly threw a Tdi in it, somehow got it through and MOT and ran it for a year! It was then parked up for a couple of years and the engine was pinched for another of his projects... so it sat outside unloved until I finally rescued it!

This P4 is an 80 model, which as you may or may not know had the 2,286 petrol engine as found in the Land Rover. As such, the 200Tdi is pretty much a perfect fit - engine mounts are the same and the bell housing stud pattern is the same also. 9.5" clutch from a Series IIa 6 cylinder or diesel means it fits the gearbox splines and suits the clutch release mech in the P4 gearbox, whilst fitting perfectly onto the Tdi flywheel. The oil filter needs mounting remotely to clear the chassis rail and the sump needs cutting and welding to clear the track rod. The only modification needed to the fabric of the vehicle is the timing case fouls the offside inner wing slightly, so a little dollying on the wing makes enough space for that!

It's not going to be a show winner, but I would like to make it quite presentable. I want it to look like a standard P4, but with the extra economy and power offered by the Tdi! Standard tailpipe is the aim, and standard spec other than the engine. With a bit of extra sound deadening and some mega engine mounts I hope it will be reasonably refined, too. The Tdi in my Series 3 only really wobbles at idle - on a motorway run it's noisy but I have no trim or sound deadening at all in that, and it's on mud terrain tyres too... I have heard reports of 45-50mpg being very achievable with this conversion, so I am quite looking forward to wallowing around in leather bench seat comfort at those kind of levels of economy! The diff has been swapped from its original 3.9 (I think it was) to a 3.54 from a Discovery also. Again, a straight swap.

As it was when it went into the workshop...
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10487351_10152519301307805_3421946272533577926_n.jpg?oh=84bb9b411614c1b34464de294f2d1b86&oe=559E3AE4&__gda__=1437986313_4c536b561304a29972d38fc0be61aa4f

The front end is currently stripped off, and the chassis is in fantastic condition showing no signs of ever having been welded or indeed any signs of needing any attention any time soon - just needs a lot of paint!
https://scontent-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/11043257_10152632308082805_7317107652157595132_n.jpg?oh=8980f3efc5fe6d592d30822d829a6996&oe=559DE849

The rot seems to be confined to the A pillars and sills, with a bit around the windscreen and heater shelf too. The rear floorpans are fantastic as is the boot floor and rear inner wings. Doors are all alloy on an 80 so they are all in good order.

I did a V888 search and found it has always been a local car which is nice - it actually spent its first 24 years registered to a chap a mile from my place of work in Bury and was originally registered RH 27. The B suffix seems to have been put on in '64 when the original reg was transferred onto something else (unfortunately now on a BMW X5 so I can't claim it back!)

Hoping to get it on the road for summer... I plan to rebuild the brakes (already done some of that) and get the welding and painting done, engine in and running. Any mechanical work such as suspension bushes, new rear springs (which I already have) etc can be done on a rolling resto basis later on, as can any other niggles. As long as it is solid and stops well I will be happy to start using it!


Last edited by Calum on Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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Uncle Alec



Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 734
Location: Manchester

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great project. Keep us posted. 5 speed box?
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Calum



Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 100
Location: Midgley, W Yorks

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will do!

Standard gearbox. The main idea with the project is that nothing has to be cut and welded to accept the engine conversion - it is pretty much a straight swap in an 80 and the theory being I could convert it back to 2.25 petrol power and no one would really know! Other than the 'period' Rover Diesel badge on the grille (from a SII Land Rover) I would like to think that until I open the bonnet, people will assume it is a standard P4. I like the common parts in the Rover vehicles from the 50s through to the 80s and even 90s... the diffs from a P4 would fit into a Series 1 Discovery, and visa versa (as indeed I have a Disco diff in the P4)

I have acquired two spare gearboxes, so a follow-up project is on the cards for when the car is on the road... the original diff was 4.3 and it is now 3.54 so it is quite an increase in gearing. I should be hitting around 2,400rpm at 70mph in OD top which is more than acceptable and negates the need for a 5 speed - I want an old car for the charm of things like overdrive and that wonderful P4 gear lever!

The P4 gearbox is essentially a 3-synchro version of the Land Rover Series I gearbox. The mainshaft dimensions remained unchanged until the end of Series III production as far as I am aware, but the layshaft was beefed up over the years. It was upgraded with larger layshaft bearings during IIa production and the layshaft itself became a one piece component for the Series III. The strongest of the SIII 'boxes were the suffix D onwards models, where BL employed electro-chemically machined gears (usually referred to as ECM gears) for added strength. The layshaft is as already stated one component, but the constant gears that mesh with it on the mainshaft need to be matched to it and thankfully these should slot straight onto the P4 mainshaft. My plan is to re-machine a P4 gearbox casing and bellhousing to accept the larger layshaft bearings, and with it the SIII Land Rover layshaft and mainshaft constant gears should drop into place. The ratios are slightly different (can't remember now if the reverse idler needs changing or not) but it should all fit in the same space and be much stronger. It also comes with the added benefit of being fully synchromesh - the higher ratios mean that 1st gear is needed more often than it would be with the standard gearing. I have been running a suffix D SIII box in my Land Rover for 5 years as my daily drive with a 200Tdi under the bonnet, and it shows no sign of giving in yet. I do have mechanical sympathy, mind you, which goes a long way!

That'll have to wait till later on this year though - for now it will run with the standard '80' gearbox!
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Calum,

I really like your project and the research you've done for it. Like UA I too look forward to your further progress reports and photos.

Peter
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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon
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ka



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 600
Location: Orkney.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like or dislike moderns, the technology used for engines and electronics is impressive. The combination of a Classic shell, with modern(isn) engine seems like a perfect mix. Look forward to reading more.
I have thought about a Micra engine for the Morgan, but whilst the 10hp, and the spare engine prove reliable, this is where I am.
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Better three than four.
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Calum



Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 100
Location: Midgley, W Yorks

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, the best thing about this conversion is that it is relatively straightforward and lots of parts will be off the shelf Rover items (even the intercooler I am hoping to use is a Rover 75 item). I see lots of Fiat twin cams and K-series lumps in Spitfires, Midgets etc but they really don't have the same attraction to me - they require lots of re-modelling and cutting and welding, trans tunnel alterations, modern gearboxes etc.
The other thing is that the Tdi actually isn't all that modern an engine... it's still a push rod OHV engine with its origins rooted in the 2.25D which appeared in the early 60s and was hardly radical at the time (the push rods themselves are actually the same part number right from 1961 or so when it was introduced, right up until the introduction of the TD5 in 1999!). The cylinder head was redesigned to become direct injection, but the rest is pretty similar to the earlier turbo diesels LR offered throughout the 80s; these themselves essentially being bored out 5 bearing 2.25s. The 200Tdi was only produced up until around 1994 (maybe a bit longer in the Defender) and 'only' produces 111bhp in Disco flavour (and just shy of 200lb/ft of torque)

Peter, I want to make sure I do the conversion properly as I want to use it a lot! There isn't so much research as pointless nerdy Series LR and Rover knowledge Laughing but thankfully it'll prove useful! I only know of two other P4s that have been such converted (there will probably be a few more out there) one of which was for sale recently but was based on a 100 (not quite as straightforward a swap as using an 80). As such, I am going to have to work out all the plumbing etc when it is all installed.


Over the weekend I started to make some repair panels and tack them in place on the bulkhead. I will buy the sill panels as they come in at under £100 for a full set (and my sheet bender isn't wide enough to make them). I have been looking at prices of engine internals, and I have decided I am going to strip the engine fully and start afresh. At the moment the block has the pistons etc, camshaft and oil pump still in it but all the other ancillaries are stripped off (flywheel is on too) so it actually won't take much to strip it and properly clean it out, replace all the core plugs etc and build it up as a fully rebuilt unit. The bores are actually all showing honing marks still so it looks promising.

Will try and get some pics up this weekend
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Calum



Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 100
Location: Midgley, W Yorks

PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been welding... slowly! Will get some pics up of that soon.

I brought my kit of engine bits back to my workshop here at home last week and I have started stripping the engine as I can work on that in the evenings after work.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/t31.0-8/11289503_10152839486747805_6810601675254989637_o.jpg

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/11391413_10152853498277805_8668109030231227468_n.jpg?oh=191cf5c0af4d7d37add9e0ebe715df0c&oe=55E7B643

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/11424455_10152853498292805_2183895354378775843_n.jpg?oh=64179e923a284fc60def62246c67b822&oe=55FEAF41

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11013622_10152853498247805_4919341044067027463_n.jpg?oh=96d2ac8343494e6a106d8040fd927f57&oe=56003E35

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11652_10152853498587805_4862433404250147694_n.jpg?oh=d7b9061b958cea8d1b4c87f37cdc29f2&oe=55EF7E8F
Only real score I can find in the journals.

The bearings are all showing a little wear, but no horrible scoring or pitting etc so the bottom end is generally in good fettle considering the age of the engine (I expect it's a good 100k mile engine at least). Whilst the bearing shells are showing wear, the crankshaft looks fantastic with no signs of damage or excess wear. I will do a dimensional check tomorrow to be sure. The pistons are all free from damage, and the bores are still showing honing marks (par for the course for a Tdi, even on high mileage engines). I am going to measure and assess everything tomorrow evening and get the new bearings, rings etc ordered whilst I strip, clean and paint the engine block properly.
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Calum



Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 100
Location: Midgley, W Yorks

PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Other things including moving house have got in the way lately, but work is progressing again on the old Rover (slowly)

The engine is almost built up now - just waiting on a few bits
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xla1/v/t1.0-9/12115425_10153084052987805_9006637857156034178_n.jpg?oh=cfe7b52afdbec1141b68debdda495929&oe=56862646

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12143334_10153084052762805_2179380184213254710_n.jpg?oh=a5f4647a6802e0fbdb767be913d9d44e&oe=5685896B
Injector pipes didn't fit as they are Defender items, and the engine is in Discovery 'trim'. They are essentially the same engine, but the timing case is different, as are the turbo/manifolds.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/12011133_10153059073752805_4901369718780832674_n.jpg?oh=37dfc252fbab03d8b8d94d9678a2805a&oe=56955027
Driver's side largely done now on the floorpan/sills. Need to get some more up to date pics really. Just the holes to cut for the handbrake and brake pedal and the A pillar wants closing back up.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xla1/v/t1.0-9/12079174_10153084053112805_645364886694866849_n.jpg?oh=e276c13c3f28ba95fa1223cf4b0e7933&oe=5691CE74
Nearside A pillar is similar. The housing for the bottom hinge I have cut off (as I did for the O/S) and remade. Not as much rot on the floorpan on this side, and the back sill was left on too. Should be done in a couple of evenings all being well!
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Calum



Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 100
Location: Midgley, W Yorks

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Engine is finally fitted...

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12065621_10153118526807805_4677352090857343587_n.jpg?oh=77b2ef53ae9f156de11f6c7d5e096672&oe=56BC35FE


Spending the evenings this week plumbing in the brakes (rebuilt calipers with stainless pistons, new seals all round, new flexis) and reconnecting the clutch linkage. Adding more bits to the engine with a view to starting it up in a few days!
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Calum



Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 100
Location: Midgley, W Yorks

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I have been very busy indeed at work, at our new house but also on the Rover too. It's very nearly on the road.. I actually took it for an MOT on friday but filled it up at the filling station and a puddle of diesel started to appear on the floor... I rang my tester and cancelled the test and drove back to the workshop Evil or Very Mad
However, the tank was dropped out and it's in superb condition and it just seemed to be the gasket between the reserve solenoid/pickup pipe and tank, and possibly the hose connection onto the tank too. I've taken the opportunity to remove the tank, repaint it and the surrounding chassis, spare wheel well etc as well as giving me the access to the rear bumper bolts so I can replace that too. Lots and lots of chassis paint needed on pretty much everything underneath this car before it all gets too bad!

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlp1/v/t1.0-9/12524373_10153416251057805_4775651324132994180_n.jpg?oh=3b47b05dacf39a3d05c226ff7d57318d&oe=57798275
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Callum,

All your old picture links appear to have expired!

Peter Shocked
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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon
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Calum



Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 100
Location: Midgley, W Yorks

PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Peter. Not sure why but Facebook links do seem to expire for some reason

Front suspension all rebuilt and it's almost ready for a retest... taking longer than hoped due to work commitments and some brake work I've had to do on the daily Series 3 Land Rover

Will sort out some up to date photos. Looks like I can't attach them on this forum.
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norustplease



Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 779
Location: Lancashire

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the curse of a lot of forums, you go back to find something that someone has put up a few years previously on a subject that is of interest, and find the images have all disappeared.
I don't know whether photos on Facebook have a limited shelf life, but if you upload your photos to something like Photobucket and then paste the img reference into your message, it should stay for as long as the photo remains in your online archive.
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Calum



Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 100
Location: Midgley, W Yorks

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I used to use photobucket a lot but it seemed to become less user friendly and I tend to upload a lot to Facebook so it's easier to pinch them from there. Not sure why the direct link seems to expire as the photos are very much still there! Will sort some up to date photos when I am back on the laptop.
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norustplease



Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 779
Location: Lancashire

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked into this. Apparently the URL of images on Facebook changes after a while, for security purposes. Your images are still there, but Facebook had altered the link so that the forum cannot access it any more.
Facebook is apparently not suitable for long term image storage in this way.
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