classic car forum header
Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Register     Posting Photographs     Privacy     F/book OCC Facebook     OCC on Patreon

Oxyacetalyne verses TIG sheet metal work
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration. Forum Index -> Bodywork & Paint Restoration
Author Message
ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4100
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:10 pm    Post subject: Oxyacetalyne verses TIG sheet metal work Reply with quote

Question prompted from an earlier welding question...

Traditional panel makers have used Oxyacetalyne for joining sheet metal since Adam was a lad, be it a new steel wing or alluminium bike tank. They didn't move to MIG as the join is not workable. Are there any members who have used both OA gas and TIG for sheet metal panel work , who can give a pros and cons of both methods?

Cheers

Dave
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Maxakarudy



Joined: 30 Apr 2013
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,
I know where you are coming from, I thought its worth bumping this up.
The lack of interest in this thread is sad, do most restoration guys think A/O welding is outdated and causes too much distortion?
Is tig welding to hi-tech, only really necessary on alloys like stainless and ali?
If some of the guys on here want to look at what can be done with tig and O/A, look up Allmetalshaping, it will open your mind up to can be done by the guy next door who strives for a higher skillset than what mig welding can achieve.
Don't get me wrong I use mig where it's best, but not everywhere.
Martin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MikeEdwards



Joined: 25 May 2011
Posts: 2463
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I quite like the idea of TIG, though I've really only seen it in action back when I was watching "American Hotrod". I just can't justify the cost of another welder just to see if it's any good. I remember seeing this thread when it turned up, but there's not much point me commenting as I've had no direct experience of it. I'd like to have a go with OA, and now that the cylinders can be had on rent-free it does make it a much more cost-effective option than it used to be.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4100
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Martin

Its a good site that you mention, it was the methods described by David Gardiner (one of the pro's on the site ) that introduced me to the advantages of gas welding over mig for body work.
Its funny the number of people who will trot out parrot style the statement that "O/A gas welding introduces too much distortion in body panels" yet they have no experience of it !

I have had a gas welding set for 20 years, but only used to use it for heating stubborn stuff and brazing. Its now my first choice for body work.

Mike; PET in Crewe stock the rent free cylinders Wink

Cheers

Dave
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Phil - Nottingham



Joined: 01 Jan 2008
Posts: 1252
Location: Nottingham

PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I learnt OxyA over 45 years ago and managed but when I got my first MIG almost 30 years ago have used it in preference although it does cause less distortion it is harder to work if needed.

I still have my Oxy A pack and keep renewing the gas bottle rentals every 5 years which costs small fortune but for heating things up and neat gas welding its unsurpassed.

Our 1938 Rover P2 with "Coach Work by RoVeR" is built up by numerous small hand beaten and part pressed panels all gas welded together some compound curve panel joints have hardly any distortion, others have over a 1/4" of lead loading.

I have never tried TIG as I find I can work with the wider variety of options these days than the Rover body builders had. The giant Pressed Steel panels used in the post war Rover bodies also required a lot of lead loading on the gas welded joints as well as spot welded ones left a lot to be desired compared to modern day body work but I prefer the old style
_________________
Rover P2
Rover P4
Rover P5 & P5B
Land Rover S2 & S3
Morris Mini Traveller Mk2
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
MikeEdwards



Joined: 25 May 2011
Posts: 2463
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ukdave2002 wrote:
Mike; PET in Crewe stock the rent free cylinders Wink


Yes, that's where my MIG cylinder is from. I rented for ages from BOC, hate to tot up what I spent especially as I wasn't using it for most of that time, then went rent-free from a caravan place in Kidsgrove. Price wasn't any different to PET, just a lot closer when a refill is needed.

I do intend to have a look at OA at some point, just need to get the car finished for this summer. Apart from anything else, OA is handy for when heat is required.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bitumen Boy



Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1733
Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire

PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When the rent-free cylinders first appeared on the market I thought I'd like to do a short course on OA welding, and checked out the local college's website. Nothing there, or in Cardiff, or in Bristol, Swansea, Gloucester etc etc etc - in fact the nearest I could find was offered by a college somewhere in north London, which made the whole idea a bit of a non starter. There were plenty of full courses for people looking to make a career out of specialist welding, covering pretty much every process ever invented - all jolly interesting no doubt, but unless you were planning to set up a shipyard in your back garden not terribly applicable to DIYers...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Maxakarudy



Joined: 30 Apr 2013
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bitumen Boy wrote:
When the rent-free cylinders first appeared on the market I thought I'd like to do a short course on OA welding, and checked out the local college's website. Nothing there, or in Cardiff, or in Bristol, Swansea, Gloucester etc etc etc - in fact the nearest I could find was offered by a college somewhere in north London, which made the whole idea a bit of a non starter. There were plenty of full courses for people looking to make a career out of specialist welding, covering pretty much every process ever invented - all jolly interesting no doubt, but unless you were planning to set up a shipyard in your back garden not terribly applicable to DIYers...


Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you, but this sums up why a lot of enthusiasts don't learn new skills, if I there isn't any convenient way of me learning, it must be do difficult to learn myself.
There is a lot of information on YouTube and Metalshaping forums with members that actively help, you might find a local entusiast that might help too, you've got to get involved. I've seen lots of people learn to weld in this manner tig and gas.
Like all skills it takes perseverance and determination to achieve
Martin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
goneps



Joined: 18 Jun 2013
Posts: 601
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it's worth, which may be nothing at all, on Saturday I attended a short panelwork course for local members run by a couple of Austin men with a great deal of experience. When someone mentioned that he had a MIG the immediate response was, "Throw it away".

Since I have no welding experience whatsoever I simply pass it on without further comment.

Richard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MikeEdwards



Joined: 25 May 2011
Posts: 2463
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

goneps wrote:
For what it's worth, which may be nothing at all, on Saturday I attended a short panelwork course for local members run by a couple of Austin men with a great deal of experience. When someone mentioned that he had a MIG the immediate response was, "Throw it away".


Sums up why a lot of people are reluctant to ask the more experienced people for advice, I'd say. I only have experience of MIG, and (without knowing the full context) I'd suggest it's a daft thing for them to have said.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Phil - Nottingham



Joined: 01 Jan 2008
Posts: 1252
Location: Nottingham

PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am self taught so give it go - MIG is a good start
_________________
Rover P2
Rover P4
Rover P5 & P5B
Land Rover S2 & S3
Morris Mini Traveller Mk2
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Minxy



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 272
Location: West Northants

PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I don't think there is a definitive answer. The obvious heat from gas welding causing distortion is primary but what you are comfortable with is, in my opinion, foremost. I can gas weld, mig and tig, I have used all three when in workshops and have access to all three at the school where I now work. My personal preference is gas. When I worked for Audi Motorsport we had gas on the service vans ( no power for anything else) so I made sure I was proficient with gas - even gas welding ally which is quite difficult, in fact I got quite a reputation when it came to my prowess with a gas torch.
When the material being welded gets thicker that's when I tend to swap to mig or tig - tig in preference.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
1935Hillman



Joined: 06 Apr 2010
Posts: 257
Location: Hampshire

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:57 pm    Post subject: Gas welding Reply with quote

I only really have experience of OA welding as a complete amateur and although totally infuriating at times can be hugely rewarding when it goes well. When I started my restoration project I was lulled into a false sense of security when my first ever job was replacing a couple of small sections on the chassis. the luxury of welding something quite thick gauge was not realised until I tackled something much thinner. I have a couple of scabby old spare sets of rear wings for my 35 Aero and decided that while my restoration job was away for some work that I could not do I would take advantage of the space and have a really concerted go at making all the repairs needed including patching a 2" fuel filler hole. It took me some time to get a)the flame small enough and b) the flame truly neutral to very fractionally oxidising to avoid melting the sheet steel within not seconds but immediately ! It nearly drove me mad. However, I kept the words of an old friend who was a brilliant welder who worked in the oil pipeline business that the only way to learn welding is to practice, practice, practice and when you really are about to chuck it in, go and have a cup of tea and then start again and practice, practice, practice. After a good couple of days of one and off melting, repairing and occasionally welding I really did feel that I was beginning to understand it and above all, relax when the torch is in my hand. I did eventually repair one of the wings to a half-decent amateur standard. Distortion did mean that there was some dressing of the wing to get it smoothed out and looking right but the bottom line is that i started off with a wing that was unfit for re-use but now do have something that could, with a bit of work be employed again. I'm not sure what I'm saying in regard to the OA versus TIG but I think that it is important that the gas welding skills are not lost. I would add that I once joined a tour of a very prestigious midlands classic jaguar restoration workshop where all the top bods only used OA to weld all their ally panels. One chap gave us a quick (and I mean quick) demo and perfectly welded two foot long panels together. It took him seconds, he used no filler rod and the end result would have needed - to my eyes - no finishing. Absolutely astonishing to behold. I would love to be able to do that one day although it is exceedingly unlikely !!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
oj



Joined: 02 Dec 2016
Posts: 21
Location: Shenandoah Valley, Virginia USA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer TIG because the heat is so focused. In this repair the metal around the taillight was stretched paper thin when it was formed, it measured to .015 at the edge. I don't know what that is in metric, trust me it very thin.
The 1st pic is what is left of the taillight, best you don't know what others had done.

I trimmed back the ragged bits and a new mounting plate from 18ga steel and pulled it into place.

Then I TIG'd the mounting plate into the fender, the mounting plate is about .042 and the stressed metal of the fender about .015-.020. I am a fair hand at OA but I could not have made this weld.

The new mounting plate welded and some metal finishing done.

I had to set the taillight in for a looksee, whadd'ya think?


With TIG the heat is so focused at the weld you can lay a match right alongside where you are welding and if you don't hit it with the torch it won't light off.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Penman



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4751
Location: Swindon, Wilts.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

0.381mm
_________________
Bristols should always come in pairs.

Any 2 from:-
Straight 6
V8 V10
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration. Forum Index -> Bodywork & Paint Restoration All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
OCC Merch link
Forum T&C


php BB powered © php BB Grp.