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Ford Popular 103e new to me
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Paul fairall



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 431
Location: North west Kent

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alastairq wrote:
Drain coolant, take head off [remove dynamo first]...measure bores.

That will tell you whether you have an 8hp or 10hp engine....for sure.

If an 8hp, then buying a 10hp block and bits isn't overly expensive...but it will likely need a 're-build', unless you're very lucky.

Join Ford Sidevalve Owner's Club toot sweet.....they have a good stores set-up...

The engine is easy to swap...and even if you don't get a 10 hp head, the one you have will fit & do.

So, really, it's all about stripping & measuring...?
thanks, that will have to wait until it's warmer, bit of a fair weather person these days. I will join the fsoc in the new year.
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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 20357
Location: Cheshire

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 10hp 1172cc engine originally fitted to the 103E is known as the E93A engine. From memory, E93A appears in raised letters on one of the engine castings, possibly the timing chain cover at the front? I no longer own a sidevalve so can't go and look but I'm sure it's written somewhere on the engine itself.

Saying that, if it's an 8 and it's mechanically ok I'd leave well alone.

RJ
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Rick (OCC Admin)
Various 1920s-1960s - Austin, Morris, Commer, Dodge etc.
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Paul fairall



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 431
Location: North west Kent

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick wrote:
The 10hp 1172cc engine originally fitted to the 103E is known as the E93A engine. From memory, E93A appears in raised letters on one of the engine castings, possibly the timing chain cover at the front? I no longer own a sidevalve so can't go and look but I'm sure it's written somewhere on the engine itself.

Saying that, if it's an 8 and it's mechanically ok I'd leave well alone.

RJ
it starts and runs fine Rick, engine numbers starting with Y are 8hp and those starting with C are 10hp, but because this is a factory replacement they have an R in front of the number. I need to have a better look as from what I could see it is R and what looks like a B but I couldn't see any numbers.
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Paul fairall



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 431
Location: North west Kent

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alastairq wrote:
Not necessarily. Depends how much you thrash the engine. Engines don't sit there producing all that potential horse power all the time.

A 500 bhp engine probably produces no more bhp when setting off, than an Austin Seven does at peak revs.

Ford offered a separate water 'pump' [for hotter climates!] as an extra.

This bolts low down on the right side[may need a 'water pump' engine bearer?]...and a longer drive belt, it plumbs into the bottom hose.

However, it is a heavy cast iron thing. Aquaplane also offer similar, but in alloy so is lighter.

Be aware, like most 'water pumps' these do not actually pump fluids...they simply 'push stuff around'.

Whilst 2nd hand pumps are available now & again, a new one is costly.

An option is to purchase and fit one of the [new?] electric water pumps like those below [although they may be had cheaper elsewhere?]
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/performance/water-pumps

These can be kept running after the engine has been turned off...thus allowing the coolant to dissipate latent heat...something a normal engine doesn't do?

At this stage, one ought to be thinking about converting to 12 volt electrics all round.

[It is possible, using a modern technology jelly battery, to simply apply 12 volts to the starter motor..keeping the rest on 6 volts, for originality?]

.
how would I keep the rest 6v and use 12v on the starter unless charging the 12v battery was done while static with a charger.
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1139
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul fairall wrote:


how would I keep the rest 6v and use 12v on the starter unless charging the 12v battery was done while static with a charger.


Whilst more applicable to earlier cars {Ford pre-WW2?], the same can be done to a Pop...but one has to ask, is it worth it?

On the 8 & 10 HP [E93A-type] Fords, the starter get's its power directly from the battery. There is no solenoid as such...the starter 'button' [pull switch] works a wire cable, which links to a mechanical switch located on top of the starter motor. This simply closes the contacts to get power to the starter.

The 6 volt battery feeds all the other electrics, and gets charged from the dynamo......the 12 volt battery simply feeds the starter motor direct. One re-charges it now & again.

However, going full 12 volts is easier. the Starter is fine on 12 volts, get a 12 volt coil, get someone to adjust the existing dynamo to charge at 12 volts [regulator, etc] or get a dynamo off a 100E, and remove the existing dynamo?...Light bulbs need changing, and go to neg earth?

Bulbs & stuff easier to get hold of, etc.
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Rick
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So long as all the connections are good, and the battery cables are suitably heavy, a 6v battery in good order will have no problem spinning a Pop engine into life.

RJ
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Paul fairall



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 431
Location: North west Kent

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has a new battery and although turns slow it starts ok.
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Rene



Joined: 06 Jul 2012
Posts: 124

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Pop will start without a problem on 6 volt if everything is in good condition,the problem on my Anglia was the dynamo,it was a 3 brush type lucas and this type of dynamo is probably the worst dynamo ever made.
If you want get rid of problems switch to 12 volt and fit a modern alternator.
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peterwpg



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2223
Location: New Brunswick. Canada

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul fairall wrote:
It has a new battery and although turns slow it starts ok.


At 6Volt the amperage drawn by the motor will be greater than that of a 12 volt, for a given amount of output torque. Good surface area switch contacts on the starter motor and good clean brush contact. Good clean and adequate surface area contact on all cable connections and you may just help out the ground path with a cable from as close to the starter motor to as close to the battery as you can get.

A simple test for possible problems with the engine chassis return. Connect a length of light gauge electrical cable from a starter securing bolt up to the battery ground.
Crank the starter, ignition off and see if the cable warms up. If it gets really hot really fast, then you have a bad ground return path.
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Paul fairall



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 431
Location: North west Kent

PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After some reading and advice from your good selves and elsewhere I have picked up a nice refurbed pair of 1.25" su carbs. I will buy an aquaplane inlet and exhaust manifold and get a larger bore exhaust system. This will improve the breathing and hopefully make it nicer to drive. I have joined the fsoc and await a reply from them before buying any of the parts I need. Maybe I will get a 10HP engine in the future but see how this goes first.
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1139
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi...I'd go for a 10 hp engine right away [if you're absolutely sure the existing engine is in fact an 8 hp?]

Get that checked out, and overhauled if needs be....before buying the Aquaplane stuff.

The 1172 ccs of capacity makes a huge difference over the 8 hp's 933ccs.

Exit your [new] exhaust out the side, in front of the right rear wheel.


Get rid of the mechanical fuel pump, it probably won't be up to supplying twin SU carbs. Replace with an electric pump. A FACET solid state pump is a good bet...and quite cheap too.

Buy/make a blanking plate for the hole where the mechanical fuel pump lived.


{If you really want to understand tuning these things, also drill a hole in the blanking plate,and get brazed in a tube, turned upwards at 90 degrees at the outer end....and a bit of hose leading somewhere safe.....as an extra engine crankcase breather. These engines really do suffer from crankcase pressurising...so need help.]
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Paul fairall



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 431
Location: North west Kent

PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The existing engine runs fine. I am taking my time gathering the aquaplane gear and once I am a member of the fsoc I will see what I can get from there. Either get a 10HP engine already sorted or rebuild one. It seems bonkers to have to take the head off to find out which engine it is. I take it there's no database matching engine numbers to engine size. Right now I want to keep the car in a running condition and not be messing about in the cold taking the head off. I just bought a workshop manual covering the 103e and E94A.
Can I get a 6v fuel pump or do I really have to go 12v.
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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 20357
Location: Cheshire

PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul fairall wrote:
The existing engine runs fine. I am taking my time gathering the aquaplane gear and once I am a member of the fsoc I will see what I can get from there. Either get a 10HP engine already sorted or rebuild one. It seems bonkers to have to take the head off to find out which engine it is. I take it there's no database matching engine numbers to engine size. Right now I want to keep the car in a running condition and not be messing about in the cold taking the head off. I just bought a workshop manual covering the 103e and E94A.
Can I get a 6v fuel pump or do I really have to go 12v.


You can get 6v SU electric pumps. I've owned two Ford sidevalves that have been fitted with twin SUs, one a period setup using 2x MC2 SU carbs, another using modern repro Aquaplane gear & SUs (not as as nice IMO). Neither had an electric pump as I recall.

If you do go down the elec pump route, try to incorporate a fuel pressure regulator in case the pressure provided by the modern pump is too much for the old carbs to deal with. When I had a P5B Rover, many people converted their cars to (12v) Facet electric pumps but quite a few came unstuck with the fuel pressure being provided, unless a method of turning the wick down a little was included.

Personally I'd just get the car running right as it is, use it for a bit, then take a step-by-step approach to modifying it, if you decide to stick with it. Even a tuned Pop will still be a very steady performer on the road thanks to its gearing, it'll just pick up its skirt a little quicker. It's basically a pre-war car after all Smile

RJ
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Paul fairall



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 431
Location: North west Kent

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at the specs of some of the pumps they seemed to pump far too much per hour. Probably best to run the twin su's with the mechanical pump and see if I get fuel starvation.
I built a Westfield with a 1700 lotus twincam, it had a small facet pump that was fine racing as it was squirt down a straight and brake for the corner but on the road it ran short of fuel chasing fast cars.
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1139
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Facet pumps can be had with different flow capabilities......the basic version [cheapest] is fine for hard road use...but won't keep up with guzzling carbs under racing conditions.

For racing, there are higher rated Facets available. [see Demon Tweeks?]

I have used Facets, in preference to SU or other, similar designs [to SU] for decades now, without a failure.

They haven't tried to overcome float bowl valves at all. [The are pressure sensitive, so simply stop pumping when the valve is shut]

They are robust as well, and more compact than any of the other types.

I still have them all [as I have downgraded older cars, I whip the pumps off and store them for future use...no sense in spending more than I have to]

They have supplied 45 DCOE's on Skoda engines, and other Weber-types, quite adequately, when used in trialling....and I have one fitted to my Dellow, which is running twin SU's on a 100E.......it has never flooded the carbs, and I [all too?] frequently give the car [and engine] some serious stick.

The only time I have needed [then, I'm not overly sure?]...a pressure [King] regulator is for my SKoda Rapid, which is running a set of bike carbs. Bike carbs are designed not to be fed by a pump, but by gravity, so need no more than around 2 to 3 psi fuel pressure.

The advantage of electric pumps mainly centres on being able to prime the carb float bowls, before turning the starter motor over.

Thus, if one has a marginal battery, one is not churning away, simply trying to fill the float bowls.

And.....Facet pumps are quite a bit cheaper than SU's...
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