classic car forum header
Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
How To Register     Posting Photographs     Privacy Policy     F/book facebook.com/oldclassiccar

Ford Popular 103e new to me
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration. Forum Index -> Ford
Author Message
Paul fairall



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 431
Location: North west Kent

PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yesterday I visited Bob Froch who has been working on sidevalve fords and V8 flat heads since in his teens. A 180 mile round trip but well worth it. I bought a fast road cam, aquaplane exhaust manifold, 8hp head and rear hub puller barely used. Bob is very knowledgable on the ford sidevalve and anything to do with model Y, 103e, 100e and model A. I mentioned some other things like an oil filter to fit my 10hp and he is putting together a kit. He also had a conversion to upright shocks he is putting together for me and he is looking for an inlet manifold for twin su's. Bob showed me a difference between the 8hp and 10hp heads, there is a depression where the distributor sits, pear shaped. Difficult to see with the distributor in position but can just be seen. This is another piece of evidence confirming mine is an 1172.
Bob is worth talking to if you need anything for a sidevalve. Before I left he gave me a book on the various engines and tuning them. Top man.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ka



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 600
Location: Orkney.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to confirm a few things, starter motors on the whole are not exchangeable between 8 and 10 hp, this is a quick and easy way to establish your engine.
Whilst the heads are off, use a plug to block up the plug hole in the head, and measure the volume of the head, ideally using a measured pipet, but even any measuring jug will do. Aquaplane heads promise a lot, but without modification only increase compression to around the same amount as a standard 8hp. Aquaplane manifolds are a way forward, but only a marginal increase in power.

Referring back to the starter motors, the hole in the block to mount the motor is different, (sizes as previously quoted). When Peter Morgan decided to build the F Super, he found that the lowered steering column fouled the standard 10hp starter motor, so had to fit an 8hp instead. He did this with an adapter plate. I can explain more but well off the point of identification purposes.
_________________
KA

Better three than four.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paul fairall



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 431
Location: North west Kent

PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob showed me a 10hp head and the chamber is noticeably deeper than the 8hp I bought from him. In the book Bob gave me there is a list of compression ratios, depending on which head and gaskets are used. For example, 10hp head with standard gasket 6.1:1, 8hp head on a 10hp block with standard gasket 7.6:1. With a combination of standard gasket and solid copper gasket or just a solid copper gasket gives up to 8.5:1 but I wouldn't want to go that high. The problem is small ford spares only do a 0.9mm solid copper gasket which if I remember correctly is 20swg and alone gives too high a compression ratio.
Any more information you can add can only be helpful.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ka



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 600
Location: Orkney.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Use the 8hp head and standard gasket, any higher and you will suffer from pinking. As a suggestion, have the head skimmed, just to check it is flat before fitting, not too radically, just a once over.
You will notice the difference, makes the engine crisper, and a bit perkier.
I went a different, way. I milled 3mm off a 10hp head to achieve a higher compression ratio, then machined round the back of the valve aperture to improve flow, after a bit of jiggery pokery using measuring flasks, I got to around 8.5to1 compression, but maintaining the better flow characteristics of the standard head.
_________________
KA

Better three than four.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paul fairall



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 431
Location: North west Kent

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I posted earlier Bob gave me a book on tuning Ford 10 engines and yesterday I finished reading it. Yes fitting the 8hp head gives an instant improvement but fitting the aquaplane manifolds and twin su.'s is a better way to start. I also have a fast road cam, with longer valve openings, with more fuel entering the chamber this gives higher compression.
I think you mentioned before about checking the volume of the chambers in the head and in the book it says to do this to make sure they are the same and to remove material at the back of the valve to achieve this. Like you say it improves flow.

When the weather improves and I have all the parts I need I will try the manifolds, twin su's, larger exhaust tailpipe and electronic ignition and see what that brings and when I start on the bodywork I may remove the engine and remove the head.


Last edited by Paul fairall on Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1086
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have trillions of heads kicking about, mainly used as doorstops at present.

I have rarely found any warpage on the Ford heads..... a pass with a large mill file as a check being sufficient for my needs.

Where I have found problems [on two or three] was in the top surface of the engine block.

Actually having the top surface of the block skimmed, is another way of raising the comp ratio. However, what it also does is reduce the area of the transfer ports....swings & roundabouts? [As does skimming the head?}

Do check the top surface of the block for level too.

Another mod I have done is to remove [and renew] all the cyl head studs.

Once the old studs are removed, and the stud holes/threads cleaned up...I drill a wee chamfer [or whatever it's called] into each stud hole in the block.

Doesn't take long [takes longer to clean up!!]....but helps provide space for the gasket to 'creep' into..otherwise that 'creep' may lead to a 'bulging' of the gasket where it's not wanted?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ka



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 600
Location: Orkney.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitting a fast road cam, with longer opening duration does not alter compression ratio. The ratio is calculated from the piston swept area, plus the head volume, divided into the head volume.
Fitting a higher lift/longer valve opening duration cam reduces torque, and moves the power up the rev range by around 500rpm, and gains a few more horses. After 10 years racing 10hp engines, I managed to get almost 50bhp at the flywheel out of mine, and yes actual, measured on a rolling road, not guestimations.
For road use I have removed the cam, and run a comparatively high compression ratio, torque is all important for driving not ultimate power. Speak to any V8 user and they will agree.
Reading the previous point about deck milling the block, yes I have done that on both the fitted engine and the spare, (instead of keeping spare bits, I find it more convenient to have them ready assembled into a spare engine).I machined the block to ensure it was not only flat, but equal end to end, with the pistons at TDC level with the top of the block giving more compression and the transfer region in the head. I have also relieved the block, and pocketed the skimmed head.
To further add to the plot I have reduced the inlet port size, polished and flowed them, and made an inlet manifold that 'sockets' into the block, and run one single 11/4" SU, economy and torque. The ports are reduced to standard size to gain gas inertia. High gas speed at lower RPM gives, again, more torque, yes at the expense of top end power, but max power at 3800rpm is all the cam will give anyway.
Ditch the cam, fit a 8hp head, and bolt on the carbs and manifolds. You will notice the power improvement, but also the reduction in economy.
_________________
KA

Better three than four.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paul fairall



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 431
Location: North west Kent

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bow to your experience KA, as I have probably mentioned previously I intend to keep the car in running order while carrying out bodywork repairs. My first job is to convert to 12v negative earth when I return from China near the end of February. Once I have found an inlet manifold for twin su's I will fit the carbs and manifolds and see what difference that makes. I have an 8hp head that needs cleaning up and may try that at some stage. Once the bodywork is done and the car gets prepared for painting I will remove the engine and hopefully fix the oil leaks and fit the cam and may then try it with both heads, not at the same time obviously Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ka



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 600
Location: Orkney.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you do intend to fit the fast road cam, you will need a set of adjustable tappets, standard ones are too short to take up the clearance on the 'lobe opposite' side. Small fords produce a set, but there are differing reviews about them. Personally I found them fine, you just need to make/adjust a spanner to fit the flats on them.

A 12v alternator is a good move, I mounted mine using the front engine mount getting if off the cylinder head to allow easier access to the head.
I once found I had to change a head gasket in the Lake district using a stream for the water, but quite a straight forward job when unfettered by a dynamo on the head.
_________________
KA

Better three than four.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paul fairall



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 431
Location: North west Kent

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will bare that in mind but the the seller told me this cam doesn't have higher lift, just a longer opening. Should be able to measure the difference between the standard and fast road cam by putting in my lathe.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1086
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A note on adjustable cam followers for the 10 HP?

I obtained a set [from Paul Beck at SFS] about 20 years ago now....[they are still in my 10 horse motor]. The main problem was grinding spanners down thin enough to fit in the 'slots' in the side of the block, in the valve chest area.

Next problem was, the screw threads used, were just a bit too coarse...strong enough, but difficult to finely adjust....?

I believe [from conversations with SFS] that the threads are now finer, making adjustment a bit more precise than twitch-controlling.

Another, important , reason for shifting the alternator [or, dynamo] mounting to the engine bearer, rather than hanging it off the cylinder head studs, is that, inevitably, the drive belt will apply pressures which eventually transmits to the cylinder head nuts....not a good idea really, since those nuts have enough work on, holding the head down, without something trying to lift them off.

There are several types of 8 hp heads around......some have a 'clamp' fitting cast on the forward end, [a circular vertical ring thing] and some have a huge cast platform...both to mount the dynamo when in original form [Ford probably making production cost savings..the dynamo was also the cooling fan drive].....I suggest opting for a head with the cast platform....and hack-sawing said platform off..maybe even tidying it up? That'll save a bit of weight, and make drive belt access a bit better too.

Nice, too, if you can get spark plugs which poke down further in their spark plgholes?

The normal plugs have their electrodes rather shrouded....
When I was getting my 10 horse motor [fitted in a Cannon trials car] set up, on a local rolling road....by an ancient tuner who used to race these things.....he found a box of special spark-plug spacers, [I think Champion used to make them?}so I could use proper length NGK plugs, each with a couple of plug spacers on, so the electrodes just poked a wee bit into the combustion area....instead of being quite shrouded by a threaded plug hole.

I recommend NGK plugs over Champion, or others, for staying cleaner longer.....but that is purely a personal view, albeit based on experience.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ka



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 600
Location: Orkney.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I used NGK long nosed plugs, the electrode extends that bit further, before I started to machine the plug hole itself, just a couple of millimetre makes the difference.
For interest Bosch do a compatible four electrode plug. I do not know whether these make a difference, my set were wrecked by the exhaust valves before allowing for valve float in my earlier days!
_________________
KA

Better three than four.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paul fairall



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 431
Location: North west Kent

PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I bought the car the previous owner said he had to slam the boot to get it to stay shut. I took a look at it and had to drill out the bolts that hold the block for the catch to the boot opening lip. While it was off I put a strip of insulating tape on the boot lid to remind me it had no lock fitted. When I removed it the paint peeled off as its doing elsewhere. I suspected the previous owner had toshed it over before selling it. I sent a form to the dvla to ask for information about when the engine and colour had been changed. I received an envelope today with copies of paperwork from previous owners. In 1978 the 1st owner from this time applied to get the registration number reinstated, since then there have been five owners, in 2007 the current engine number was added to the V5, During all this time the colour has been listed as black but was blue originally. Although the paintwork looks good in photos there are a lot of scabby areas ( not rust ) just flaked patches that I will have to deal with over time.
_________________
1957 ford popular
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paul fairall



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 431
Location: North west Kent

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today I took the pop to our nearest tyre depot I do work for and the mot guy put it on the lift and checked underneath it. Found one front spring shackle bolt with no nut and the other side the nut was hanging on by one thread. Front leaf spring needs replacing as the axle is on the bump stops. Near side engine mount needs replacing. Offside kingpin has play but may be ok when greased. Chassis and body underneath is all good. Put it on the brake tester and the fronts are pulling up level but rear offside needs attention. Found a bolt that holds the headlight bracket with a nut missing.

For those owners not mechanically adept an mot is essential and in my opinion should be mandatory for all cars regardless of age. After all it's not as though a failure is an inconvenience as we don't use them daily do we?
_________________
1957 ford popular
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ka



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 600
Location: Orkney.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can only speak for myself here. Unless you arse lucky enough to find an MOT station that actually recognises and knows older vehicles, then an MOT is both a cost and an exercise that is not needed.
Last MOT I had, I drove in to the bemusement of the examiner, wondering how the centre wheel would manage the pit, I then explained how slider/centre-pin front suspension works, about cup-and-cone, and why there was no shock absorber on the rear springs. Luckily I have upgraded the brakes to hydraulic, away from a sliding wedge, so that was one explanation less to do.
I have just finished the annual disassembly/check/reassembly on mine, ie., remove body, remove rear springs, wheel, forks, and gearbox. New keys in the prop, clean, examine and paint the forks, clean, examine, check tension on spokes, look for cracks in wheel center, new tyre on the back wheel, reassemble. Replace body, go to front. Strip brakes, clean, adjust, check wheels same as rear, reassemble. Compression test engine, check and replace/clean plugs and points, time-up. ready for the season. (Just for interest, my wheel centres are cleaned to steel, then lacquered).
Having seen a rear wheel fracture and break on a Morgan, there are never enough checks that can be done.
_________________
KA

Better three than four.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration. Forum Index -> Ford All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Page 5 of 8

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Forum T&C


php BB powered © php BB Grp.