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47Jag
Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 1480 Location: Bothwell, Scotland
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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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BB,
Because they are gear reduction I reckon the pinion speed would not fast enough to 'throw' the pinion into mesh.
The inertia starter is adequate enough if the engine is in good tune. It was when only when one or two cylinders would cough/fire with enough force to throw the pinion out of mesh.
Art |
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trampintransit
Joined: 09 Aug 2010 Posts: 166 Location: Edinburgh
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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:36 am Post subject: |
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The original motor started the engine a couple of times then burst into flames....It was a slightly odd lucas model so I thought...I know....I'll take the easy route and ...etc ...etc... _________________ '60 Armstrong Siddeley Star Sapphire
'80 Reliant Scimitar
'47 Jaguar MKIV --- in bits!!!! |
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Phil - Nottingham
Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 1252 Location: Nottingham
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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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The proper Lucas one was good enough when new - it looks like it only needs rewinding and a number of firms do them. Perhaps a later model starter can be adapted eg the one used on P4's and 3 Litre Rovers and many others from that time. This is more powerful than the smaller more common Lucas motors used on smaller popular cars.
What is the actual Lucas model? _________________ Rover P2
Rover P4
Rover P5 & P5B
Land Rover S2 & S3
Morris Mini Traveller Mk2 |
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Bitumen Boy
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 1735 Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire
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Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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47Jag wrote: | BB,
Because they are gear reduction I reckon the pinion speed would not fast enough to 'throw' the pinion into mesh.
The inertia starter is adequate enough if the engine is in good tune. It was when only when one or two cylinders would cough/fire with enough force to throw the pinion out of mesh.
Art |
I understand what you're saying, Art, but I would have thought that if it turns fast enough to start the engine that should be sufficient. As I understand it the whole idea is that the motor itself turns faster but doesn't need to produce as much torque, so it draws less current from the battery. All the electronic nonsense on modern cars - which is where these geared starters originated - places a heavy demand on the battery and charging system, which I suspect is why the manufacturers are becoming so enthusiastic about LED lighting. |
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trampintransit
Joined: 09 Aug 2010 Posts: 166 Location: Edinburgh
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Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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Well, the news from Wosp is that they are well used to preengaged starters that operate against a ring with no lead in...in fact they say that most moderns have no lead in at all on the ring OR the pinion.
This isapparenlty the first time this has happened to them ...I'm starting to wonder if it's something I've done...anyway...they are talking to me now ...We'll see what happens. _________________ '60 Armstrong Siddeley Star Sapphire
'80 Reliant Scimitar
'47 Jaguar MKIV --- in bits!!!! |
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47Jag
Joined: 26 Jun 2008 Posts: 1480 Location: Bothwell, Scotland
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Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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TT,
Quote: | As I understand it the whole idea is that the motor itself turns faster but doesn't need to produce as much torque |
Actually it's the opposite. The inertia starter will go at a faster speed initially because it has no load and slows down as it engages and starts cranking. The gear reduction starter, as the name implies, the speed is reduced but the torque (the actual indication of how much work it is capable of) is increased.
I don't know for a fact, but I would think the current draw is less.
I would agree with Phil and sort out the original starter. I would have thought for less money and complication.
Art |
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trampintransit
Joined: 09 Aug 2010 Posts: 166 Location: Edinburgh
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Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Well I've started now!!!!! The thinking was along the lines that it's hardly rare to find oneself with a reluctant motor that just doesn't want to start. such is the nature of 60year old engines. When they are reluctant, two things will help get it going..
1) A much faster turn over speed..and by golly does this thing turn the engine over quickly
2) A lot more chance to try things before the battery dies, and this thing really does use a hell of a lot less current. The battery seems to last forever! _________________ '60 Armstrong Siddeley Star Sapphire
'80 Reliant Scimitar
'47 Jaguar MKIV --- in bits!!!! |
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Phil - Nottingham
Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 1252 Location: Nottingham
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Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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That is the problem Torque and speed are not the same. High speed can overcome drag of thick and cold oils sometimes offset by low compression - modern engines use thin oils and have a very narrow power band which demands higher revs hence 6 speed gear boxes.
Old engines should start on a few twirls of the handle and do not need a high speed.
Our newest "modern" high CR engined car - the only one with a P/E starter (1972) needs churning over after standing in winter after a week or so - the other 6 dating back to 1938 start instantly and certainly as fast as 21c new cars _________________ Rover P2
Rover P4
Rover P5 & P5B
Land Rover S2 & S3
Morris Mini Traveller Mk2 |
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trampintransit
Joined: 09 Aug 2010 Posts: 166 Location: Edinburgh
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Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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Well, here Gentlemen is the live and learn moment.
Right at the start, AES said " Is the switch supplying the current to the solenoid good "
I said it must be...after all it's starting the motor. In an inertia unit, the solenoid is really just a switch as I understand it, once the thing starts the main current supply start doing the job and off we go...spinning the engine.
Finally the guy from WOSP suggested again checking the 'low current' supply to the solenoid, as it need to supply FORTY AMPS !!!
Apparently , in this application the solenoid starts the pinion spinning and doesn't connect the main supply unti the pinion is fully in mesh, needing that 40amps the continue trying to spin the pinion against the flats of the ring gear untill it drops into mesh.
Because I'd been supplying the solenoid via the original wiring to the ignition and then via the stater push button there was clearly a voltage drop by the tine it got to the solenoid. By jumping the solenoid from the main supply, it continues to try to turn the pinion againdt the back of the ring gear until it drops into mesh then picks up the main supply and starts the car perfectly every time.
So, the solenoid on the starter is now supplied by the cars original solenoid, in turn activated by the starter button. A bit messy, a solenoid to supply a solenoid but it all works
Thank you to Wosp preformance for their patience. _________________ '60 Armstrong Siddeley Star Sapphire
'80 Reliant Scimitar
'47 Jaguar MKIV --- in bits!!!! |
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