Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

Shminxler · Joined: 17 Nov 2014 Posts: 6

Hi there,

I have a couple of old series 6 Minx's's here that i have some plans for. This one is quite a nice old thing that has been pretty well looked after. It was in regular use until around five or six years ago until it was bought by myself and thrown into the shed. Today i have had a bit of a go at getting it started.

I've thrown a new battery into it showing around 12.5v, there's around 12.4v at the starter. When i turn the key i sometimes get a clank as the starter gets something but the next time nothing. If i leave it a few minutes and try the key again i usually get that first clank of the starter but then i get nothing again when i try the key the next time. Lights come on on the dash when i turn the ignition on but i get nothing consistent after that when i turn the key. The key needs a bit of a wriggle to engage the switch.

The starter motor itself is slightly wobbly with just a mm or so of movement when i move it side to side at the outer end where the negative cable connects to it. It seems to be bolted up tight though to the block/bellhousing. Its a manual. I haven't tried very hard yet to turn the engine over manually yet.

When i first got hold of the car i threw a battery from my valiant into the minx and tried to start it. Ignorantly not knowing that these things were positive earth i had connected the battery up backwards. It turned over a few times, maybe for three or four seconds but then that was it. Only then did i consult a manual and learn about positive earth. Have i likely cranked the engine backwards here?

When i next get out to the shed i guess I'll pull the starter motor to inspect it.

I just thought I'd see if anyone had any advice or ideas.

I love my cars but I'm not very proficient. Even though i love to have a go and have done a fair bit in the past, my knowledge base is a bit like swiss cheese. Electrics in particular is an area i need to get a better grasp of.

Any help very appreciated.

Cheers..

Paul fairall · Joined: 17 Nov 2016 Posts: 429 Location: North west Kent

Assuming the starter is a bendix type I doubt it would engage the fly wheel if it went backwards.
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47Jag · Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:53 pm Post subject:

Reversing the battery polarity doesn't make the starter turn the opposite way.

The first thing you have to do is try and turn the engine over by hand. The clang you hear may be the starter engaging but is unable to turn a seized or tight engine. The movement you mentioned, is that the body of the starter that moves? If so you will have to tighten the through bolts. These are the round headed screws you see at the end of the starter. These need to be tight to allow the starter brushes to get a good earth connection.

Art

Rick · Site Admin Joined: 27 Apr 2005 Posts: 22446 Location: UK

Welcome aboard, as Art says, first thing's first and check the engine turns over ok by hand - maybe remove the spark plugs first to make life a little easier.

RJ
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Shminxler · Joined: 17 Nov 2014 Posts: 6

Righto, great tips. I'll get into it with more purpose next time i get out there.

Starter is a Lucas I think. Yes, its the actual body of the starter that has some play so I'll look for those bolts or similar. Something is not right there.

Is there anything i should check that may be damaged from reversing the polarity? I don't really understand what practically happened when i hooked the battery up in reverse but would like to.. I've been told many different things.

67 series 6 Minx. 1725.

Thanks, I appreciate the advice.

Peter_L · Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:18 pm Post subject:

Starter Motors are what are called "Series Wound". Reversing polarity doesn't change rotation direction. Direction can be changed by changing polarity to either the Field Windings or to the Brushes. Many years ago, before electric winches were low cost and available, I made one that I could bolt on to our road trip Cortina.

kevin2306 · Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:27 pm Post subject:

When I first got involved with my vogue it had been standing in a garage unused since 1989.
Initially I spent my time turning it over with the handle and putting diesel down the bores etc.
Changed the plugs etc before attempting a start.
Lucky for me the starter was fine although the brakes were frozen.

Just a matter of being methodical with the old girl and she will start for you, any pictures?

Kevin

Shminxler · Joined: 17 Nov 2014 Posts: 6

Yes Kevin, I'll go back to the start and try to think about things logically. I've definitely been thrown off by connecting the battery backwards and have been looking for what damage might be done rather than maybe just thinking about the basics. I'm sure it cranked over a number of times when i first tried to start it but that was a few years ago now.

Hope to get out to the shed tonight.

Cheers.

Shminxler · Joined: 17 Nov 2014 Posts: 6

Well this has been a balls up, I've had a bum steer in the past.
A Series 6 Minx it seems is negative earth, a change occured with the 1725 engine pre- Hunter and it looks like my issue has always been with the starter motor I'm guessing which I'll now investigate. Hmmm, I'm learning.
The cylindrical part of the starter motor (yes a Lucas) is no longer bonded to the cast section that bolts to the bellhousing, hence the free play. Not sure if that was a press fit or spot welded from factory etc but there is movement now and I'm not sure if that is a big issue.
The motor turns over fine by hand.
With the battery hooked up correctly, the starter sounds more willing but is not cranking the engine. My headlights go dim or drop altogether when I hit the starter switch.[/u]

kevin2306 · Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:11 pm Post subject:

If your lights are dipping or going off I'd suspect a bad earth, dead short or a knackered battery?

Kevin

47Jag · Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:08 pm Post subject:

If you remove the starter you will see that there are four main parts. The casing makes up three of them plus the armature with the pinion mounted on it. The pinion should turn on the spiral screw freely in return under the light spring pressure. On the casing there should be a little dowel on the iron bit that bolts onto the engine (know as the drive end bracket) which locates into a hole/indentation in the casing. There will be a similar dowel on the alloy end. These are there to locate the parts and you don't have to strip the starter to see them. Assuming they are there tighten the round screws with the biggest screwdriver you have. If one or both are missing they will allow the casing to move relative to the D/E bracket. If they are missing I don't know where you can get them and you may have to find another starter.

Art

Shminxler · Joined: 17 Nov 2014 Posts: 6

Thanks Kevin, It's a brand new battery so I'll check for clean earths. Battery is a 40 ampere 425cca unit, that should start this car easily and with longevity shouldn't it? Just observing how small it is sitting in the battery tray.

Here's a few pics anyway Kevin.

Cheers for info Art, so it's those through bolts you mentioned earlier that internally tie the unit together including to the drive end bracket and tightening those will eliminate that play? All the through bolts are there on this unit.
It looks like I'll need to drop the exhaust from the manifold to completely pull the starter motor unfortunately so that'll have to wait a few days now. I do have another starter motor or three here so changing over won't be a problem if I can't sort this one.

Thanks again,

Matt

Peter_L · Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:40 pm Post subject:

Work logically.

Pull the plugs. Neutral. and tested that with no compression the engine turns OK by hand.

Get the help of a mate. and some jumper leads.

One lead straight onto the starter motor casing,(metal to metal) the other to the "power" - "main" the "big connection" on the starter motor

You should get a fair spark as you make contact and the motor should spin.

If it does, then immediate problem is elsewhere.

Work logically. Leave the jump lead new earth where it was and try again from the key. If that doesn't work, put the "live" jump lead onto the starter motor side of the solenoid. Proves the connection from solenoid to motor.

If that works, leave earth where it was and put "Live" to switched side of solenoid and try the key again.

I was brought up with a phrase. "If the ship is sinking, there is nothing to be gained by painting the funnels"

Note: Connecting the battery backwards would have no effect on the starter not cranking the engine in the correct direction. Starter motors (like yours) turn the same way regardless of polarity at the terminals. They are what are called "series wound" motors.

Shminxler · Joined: 17 Nov 2014 Posts: 6

Okay, thanks. I'll try all of that.

One thing I failed to mention was that when I first tried to start the engine a few years back when I initially connected the battery as positive earth, when I turned the key there was a significant amount of smoke coming from somewhere in the engine bay. When it dissipated I hit the key again and it didn't sound the same again.

Hence turning to the internet where I read that Minx are negative earth and I continued to go wrong from there thinking I'd caused some damage somewhere.

Anyway, I'm on to it more now thanks to the advice here and I'll try all those things.. Cheers.