classic car forum header
Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
How To Register     Posting Photographs     Privacy Policy     F/book facebook.com/oldclassiccar

Super Minx clutch losing pressure
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration. Forum Index -> Rootes Group & Original Companies (Hillman, Humber, Singer, Sunbeam, Commer etc)
Author Message
alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1085
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would think there's a HAynes MAnual for that car model..regarding fitment?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jaguar



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
Posts: 19
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tricia,

I think I am able to help you out with the measurements you have been asking for. It is knowledge I found on the forum of SAOCA, the US website of Sunbeam Alpine Owners. The system of the combination of engine and gearbox is the same for both a Hillman Superminx MK 4 and a Sunbeam Alpine Series V.
The information I am referring to is contained in an image and since I don't know how to upload this to this forum I have to guide you to where you can find this image which is provided by "Jumpinjan".

Go to www.sunbeamalpine.org and click on FORUM, click on "Stock"Alpine.
Then scroll to Balky clutch, click on it and go to post number 9 which is the post from Jumpinjan.

I hope this will be of some help!

Best regards,

Peter


Last edited by Jaguar on Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 5981
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



_________________
http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2 litre saloon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
peterwpg



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2223
Location: New Brunswick. Canada

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re post from Jaguar/Peter above. Could this be the answer. The "firmness" that TriciaS refers to may be unwanted firmness and is causing over movement of the clutch.

The OP does refer to a new slave, some weird positioning and the clutch having being replaced before TriciaS purchased the vehicle.

I don't know about anyone else but the largest figures for slave piston travel do seem a little too long ?
_________________
Peter L
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jaguar



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
Posts: 19
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

If it should have been my car I should take out the gearbox and inspect the whole system of clutch cover, thrust bearing and clutch plate. It is mentioned here before: a possiblity is a to thin clutch cover just like a member of the Engish SAOC experienced some time ago, but in his case it was the other way around a clutch cover which was a little bit to thick! A few millimeters difference can upset the whole system.
The moral of this is: it happens that one buys the wrong clutch cover somethng the previous owner could have done.

By the way: if the crankshaft should be moving that much forward (so called crank walking) then the rpm should drop significantly and it should also cause a very low oil pressure because in that case the oil openings in the crank shaft should no longer match the oil openings in the main bearings. This low oil pressure shows especially when the engine idles.

Indeed installing the slave at the wrong side of the gearbox is an often made mistake!

Peter


Last edited by Jaguar on Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peterwpg



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2223
Location: New Brunswick. Canada

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is part of one post made by TricaS and could, in part, explain why a proper diagnosis has not yet been made "

Quote TriciaS "I will just add we have had lots of classic cars in our 27 years together and always managed to sort out the problems but so far never had to delve into the bottom end of engines so will not start doing that now, I am sure it just needs either a master cylinder or more bleeding but would still like to know from anyone else with a super minx what the travel of the push rod is so as I know what sort of problem I have, I will not give up yet, I do prefer clutch's with manual linkage and cable rather than fluid but will persevere End Quote.

Like others here, I believe that there is now good reason to seek a thorough diagnosis of the problem. There is little doubt that the slave piston moves and nothing to suggest that immediately after bleeding the car drives Ok but fails to do so a little later, which would suggest some air getting back into the system.. I have had that happen and manged to drive the vehicle by pumping up the clutch. just as perhaps some of us have had to do with the brakes.

I did ask earlier that TriciaS post their approx location, just in case someone on OCC knows of a "good guy" who may be willing to give the vehicle/clutch a once over.
_________________
Peter L
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jaguar



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
Posts: 19
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This makes some sense and is easy to do and while up to now bleeding had not the wanted result the method of bleeding could be changed.

I myself experienced some months ago that bleeding the brakes of one of my Rootes cars did not succeeded while using the old method of two man from which one pumps the pedal and the other opens the bleeding valves.
In this particular case in the end I moved over to using an Eezlebleed and in a few minutes I succeeded to remove the air for about 90%
The last of the air was removed by placing a piece of wood between the steering wheel and the brake pedal (after having pumped the pedal 4 to 5 times). Well the rest of this trick is waiting....for 24 hours.
The next day I removed the wooden stick, pumped the brake pedal 2 to 3 times and all was and still is well. This trick I have used in the past also on clutches which were difficult to bleed and it worked every time.

Peter R.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peterwpg



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2223
Location: New Brunswick. Canada

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re "Bleeding" it would appear that there has been numerous attempts at bleeding. If the fluid is being circulated and the system bled and re-bled with the same fluid, air may be getting re introduced.

I looked back at some of the figures Tricia S quoted for slave piston movement.

7 inches seems like a lot of movement at the outer end of the clutch arm when the required clutch throw distance is measured in fractions of an inch.
_________________
Peter L
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jaguar



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
Posts: 19
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with both your observations.

Peter R.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 5981
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentlemen, you appear to be ignoring Tricia's statement that the problem only occurs when the engine is running. (Or have I misunderstood her?)

Peter
_________________
http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2 litre saloon


Last edited by peter scott on Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
peterwpg



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2223
Location: New Brunswick. Canada

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter scott wrote:
Gentlemen, you appear no be ignoring Tricia's statement that the problem only occurs when the engine is running. (Or have I misunderstood her?)

Peter


I was reading it that the clutch lever at the point where it is attached to the push rod on the cylinder moves about 2.5 inches with engine on and 7 inches with engine off. But there again I may be completely misunderstanding the problem as described.

TriciaS and her partner have admitted that they have little to no experience with the lower part of the engine.

To All: What would you put the total throwout distance that the face of thrust bearing would move.?

I asked this question earlier as there is 2016 posting from TriciaS

Quote:Looking back at your earlier 2016 postings, is this the same car, with overdrive, it would seem you inherited a number of minor problems.
End Quote

_________________
Peter L
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
peterwpg



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2223
Location: New Brunswick. Canada

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TriciaS wrote:


the meaning of the slave being on the wrong side means that as you have the lip of the bell-housing with the 2 bolt holes you can either put the slave in front or behind the lip plus there is a spacer, it was fitted with the spacer and slave on the same side which was in front of the lip, as our new slave was a tad longer we have put the slave and spacer on opposite sides as when the slave was on the front the piston came out too far,


.......anyway I am not going to delve into taking the gearbox off as the car does go into gear so I cannot see any problem with the workings or type of clutch fitted, I am still thinking it is a fluid leak or air intake somewhere, I really want to know of some other measurements of engine on and off as in movement of the push rod or it was a pointless exercise on my part as it did not solve anything.



This was the last post from TriciaS on 12th August. I have a feeling we may never know the answer... Crying or Very sad
_________________
Peter L
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jaguar



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
Posts: 19
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been looking in some posts on the old forum of SAOC in the UK and there was mentioned "the release bearing has a throw of 40 mm along the shaft from one extreme to the other". Also was mentioned "the lever can be moved about 25 mm from outside the bell housing before it engaged the clutch face".
Another observation was that 3 mm free play of the release bearing should be sufficient.
I don't know if this helps but here it is.

Peter R.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Penman



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 3942
Location: Lancashire

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
Looking at the picture of the yoke and arm assembly and trying to gauge the leverage there appears to be a 5 to 7 ratio between the 2 halves of the lever either side of the pivot so jaguar's 25mm movement of the bearing before contact would translate to 35mm movement at the outer end.
_________________
Bristols should always come in pairs.

Any 2 from:-
Straight 6
V8 V10
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TriciaS



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am still here and just have not had anything to say for a few days as been changing pipe between master and slave as it must have been sucking in air but not leaking and when the pipe was taken off it appears a previous owner has used 6mm pipe instead of 1/4 inch and had filed the ends to fit the 7/16th nuts and obviously caused the air getting in, thought it would solve problem but alas now doing tests again and same problem but now noticeable movement in crankshaft so it is probably the end of the road for us as no money to have professional sort it and no means of doing bottom of engine ourselves as no equipment to raise vehicle and no garage to work in. We are near Spalding in Lincolnshire and will probably be putting her up for sale once my partner gets over the shock of having to give up on what is otherwise a very good classic car. Thanks for all your replies so far
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration. Forum Index -> Rootes Group & Original Companies (Hillman, Humber, Singer, Sunbeam, Commer etc) All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Page 3 of 10

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Forum T&C


php BB powered © php BB Grp.