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Super Minx clutch losing pressure
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Post new topic   Reply to topic    Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration. Forum Index -> Rootes Group & Original Companies (Hillman, Humber, Singer, Sunbeam, Commer etc)
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V8 Nutter



Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 494

PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to build engines for a living, from memory the thrusts on Rootes engines would drop out occasionally, (Triumphs did it regularly) it was usually caused by a worn clutch pushing over centre. I.E. more pressure on the thrust washers than they could cope with. If a thrust washer has fallen out the block and the crank are probably damaged and will need welding and re-machining. Over size thrust washers were available but the thickest was usually 12 thou.

Something less likely is the clutch problems started with a worn out clutch release bearing, they had those horrible carbon things. When they are worn out they can cause other problems
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TriciaS



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaguar wrote:
Hi Tricia,

While you already have found out that the slave was installed at the wrong side of the gearbox, which is a commonly made mistake, there is another mistake that is made frequently and that is the position of the bleeding screw.
The appropriate position of this bleeding screw is at the top of the slave while the lining from the master is at the bottom of the slave and certainly not the other way around. If the bleeding screw is at the bottom of the slave bleeding becomes a nightmare and one never gets the required result.
Although I see no connection with the problem you have described, it is worthwhile checking this, it won't take more than a minute.

Peter R.

Hi,
I have not done anything since last on here as other half has gone into depression which could last weeks before he gets at it again so don't think I have given up and disappeared, the slave is the correct way up, when we purchased the car it was advertised as having had a complete engine rebuild and new clutch fitted at same time, the only driving of the car for us was a quick test drive about a mile or so when it all seemed fine, other than that we have worke don the carb as it had problems of flooding which is all sorted not and we changed a lot of electrics and cables as previous owner had fitted a home made immobiliser of sorts well a cut out switch but had left bare cable near the full beam switch so a day or so after getting it she caught fire which was seen to pretty quickly but had to change almost all of the loom so checked all wiring everywhere and changed lots of bits so of course this delayed sorting the slave till last but I still cannot see why changing the slave has caused this problem that was not there before, pipe has now been replaced and pedal nice and firm now but as soon as you turn the key pedal goes to the floor, it is the 1725cc MKIV , is it possible that if the engine rebuild had been done bodgely could they have covered this fault just for the test drive and sale because other wise I cannot see any connection to crankshaft movement as it did not happen on the test drive
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TriciaS



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

V8 Nutter wrote:
I used to build engines for a living, from memory the thrusts on Rootes engines would drop out occasionally, (Triumphs did it regularly) it was usually caused by a worn clutch pushing over centre. I.E. more pressure on the thrust washers than they could cope with. If a thrust washer has fallen out the block and the crank are probably damaged and will need welding and re-machining. Over size thrust washers were available but the thickest was usually 12 thou.

Something less likely is the clutch problems started with a worn out clutch release bearing, they had those horrible carbon things. When they are worn out they can cause other problems

but if the car has not been driven since they might have fallen out then I can't see any damage occurring from just turning engine over a few times whilst testing slave, and not been driven since test drive when all seemed ok with clutch
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V8 Nutter



Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 494

PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the car hasn't been driven you are probably right, but it doesn't take long to chew up the face on the block and the crank.
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TriciaS



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

V8 Nutter wrote:
If the car hasn't been driven you are probably right, but it doesn't take long to chew up the face on the block and the crank.

there is no noises when the engine is running just the loss of clutch
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Jaguar



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
Posts: 19
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What if the person who rebuilt the engine has forgotten to install the thrust washers? A not experienced persons regarding engine rebuild can easely oversse this two little washers.
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TriciaS



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaguar wrote:
What if the person who rebuilt the engine has forgotten to install the thrust washers? A not experienced persons regarding engine rebuild can easely oversse this two little washers.

but wouldn't it have shown up as a problem at test drive, clutch was fine
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Jaguar



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
Posts: 19
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is also possible that a non experienced mechanic has installed the thrust washers the wrong way, one side of the washers has two kind of oil canals and this side must be facing the crankshaft and not facing the engine block. If the washers are installed in the opposite way then there is no lubrication and this causes damage and in the end the damage is that severe that the thrust washers can fall down in the sump pan.
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 5981
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the thrust washers were assembled the wrong way around I would not expect them to wear very quickly. The back sides will be much harder than the normal bearing faces so any grit will not embed itself but I can't see them disintegrating between a test drive and the next trip out.

The only way to know the truth is to get your hands dirty. (Or kick up such a fuss with the seller that he/she takes the car back and refunds the purchase price.)

Peter
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1939 SS Jaguar 2 litre saloon
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peterwpg



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2223
Location: New Brunswick. Canada

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am agreeing with Peter S on possible retro-action. From what you have said in this thread and your earlier 2016, this vehicle was sold with a significant number of defects.

But I can see that trying to get recompense now would be very difficult and maybe impossible without the risk of costs that would be far more than the vehicle is worth. Considerable time has past and by your own admission you have also carried out some repairs which may be argued were detrimental to the vehicle as it is now.

As hard as it may be, perhaps the best route for your own health is to advertise it "as is" and recover some cash. To continue with bit by bit attempts to solve the problem would involve unknown costs because the exact problems at this moment are unknown.

This post has attracted a significant amount of attention from OCC members but I feel that without a "hands on" knowledgeable diagnosis there is little chance of finding a remedy within the postings.

I would guess that I am not alone in having sympathy for your dilemma but is the vehicle really worth risking your health ?
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Peter L
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TriciaS



Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peterwpg wrote:
I am agreeing with Peter S on possible retro-action. From what you have said in this thread and your earlier 2016, this vehicle was sold with a significant number of defects.

But I can see that trying to get recompense now would be very difficult and maybe impossible without the risk of costs that would be far more than the vehicle is worth. Considerable time has past and by your own admission you have also carried out some repairs which may be argued were detrimental to the vehicle as it is now.

As hard as it may be, perhaps the best route for your own health is to advertise it "as is" and recover some cash. To continue with bit by bit attempts to solve the problem would involve unknown costs because the exact problems at this moment are unknown.

This post has attracted a significant amount of attention from OCC members but I feel that without a "hands on" knowledgeable diagnosis there is little chance of finding a remedy within the postings.

I would guess that I am not alone in having sympathy for your dilemma but is the vehicle really worth risking your health ?


Are you saying the repairs we have carried out are detrimental to its value because we have used original parts and made good what was bodged so I take offence at you saying we have not made the vehicle better than it was
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peterwpg



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2223
Location: New Brunswick. Canada

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Confused
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Jaguar



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
Posts: 19
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Tricia I agree with the viewpont that without getting your hands dirty you will never find out what causes all this trouble with the clutch and if your measurements regarding the thrust washers are correct than you certainly have a big problem that needs to be attended. If this error causes your clutch problems can only be determined by a real investigation and that means hands on! If this is a wise move, regarding the costs, I don't know.
Anyhow I wish you and your husband all the best and a wise decision for your own good.

Regards,

Petere
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 5981
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TriciaS wrote:


Are you saying the repairs we have carried out are detrimental to its value because we have used original parts and made good what was bodged so I take offence at you saying we have not made the vehicle better than it was


Hi Tricia,

I'm sure Peterwpg didn't mean to offend. I think he is saying that any work that you have done since purchase gives the seller an excuse to claim that you have somehow put it wrong even though this totally untrue.

I know that Peterwpg thinks that investigating the thrust washers is a difficult thing to do but I very much disagree with him in this and hope that you will investigate and get a lot of satisfaction from fixing the problem. Doing it yourself the monetary cost of this is likely to be minimal.

Peter.
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Farmer John



Joined: 18 Feb 2010
Posts: 159
Location: Manawatu NZ

PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:45 am    Post subject: Minx clutch Reply with quote

Hello to the Original Poster. Tricia is it?
As with any problem diagnose it first. You may be lucky and fluke it by dismantling but the chances are tiny and it might even disturb the problem. Anyway, it is essential that you are able to lever the crankshaft fore and aft. It is usually possible to lever the crankshaft forward with a bar behind the front pulley between the pulley and timing cover. Go to whatever trouble it takes to find, make, or purchase such a bar that will apply force at the back of the pulley as close to the seal shaft as possible. Do not lever where the "V" for the fan belt runs. It needs a fair sort of force to ensure that the crankshaft is as far forward as it will go. To lever the crankshaft rearwards the best place by far is between the flywheel and the block. Take the starter out. Once you can make these two movements then you can replicate the crankshaft's movement fore and aft when the motor is running. Lever the crankshaft as far forward as it will go and pump up the clutch pedal until the pedal is "good". That OK? You have done the same as you have been doing all along before starting the motor.
Now get your lever between the flywheel and the block and lever the flywheel and crankshaft rearwards as far as it will go. Push the clutch pedal. If the first pump is no good, i.e., you have lost your "pedal" you will know that it is crankshaft end-float causing your problem. If so, here is the next move. You must actually measure the end-float. The best method and also the simplest is to use a dial gauge or DTI. The chances of inaccuracy using any other measuring device are too great to use any of them.
If you find that the end-float is outside specs then you will know by exactly how much.
Pretty sure that the sump will come off your Minx with the engine in the car so take it off and remove the main bearing cap that keeps the thrusts in place.
If however the levering of the shaft fore and aft does not change the "pedal" the same way that starting does, there is really no alternative to removing the gearbox and clutch cover assembly since you cannot otherwise see in there.
I think you have pretty much proved that bleeding any more is not going to make any difference. Clutch hydraulics are quite often self-bleeding because of the height difference and also there being no line pressure.

John
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