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Hydrogen, batteries and *The Future*
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Minxy



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 214
Location: West Northants

PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

95-98% of hydrogen is produced by petroleum-chemical companies from, and using, fossil fuel.

A massive subject and often emotive but electric motoring is here to stay and progressing in leaps and bounds. My wife and I test drove a couple of electric cars this week as it is very likely we shall buy one and I have to say driving them was the most excited I have got in a modern car for years....what an absolute blast it was. As for re-fueling, one we drove had a real world range of just short of 300 miles - you fill it up on your drive at night while you are in bed all for about £4.
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 5949
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miken wrote:
peter scott wrote:
That's the only way to go. Batteries are a bad way with no obvious prospect of seriously replacing petrol and diesel..

With hydrogen available at pumps we might even have the possibility of running our old cars in similar fashion to LPG.

Peter

So, how many governments around the world are planning a hydrogen filling infrastructure?
There are already more electric charging locations open in the UK than petrol stations (630 opened in the last 30 days). Google " How many etc ".


Take a look at Los Angeles just as an example.

https://cafcp.org
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Bitumen Boy



Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1300
Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rush to provide electric charging points is regrettable, IMO. Electric vehicles may well have their uses but the speed of recharging is a major issue that I doubt will ever be solved properly, yes I know fast chargers are available now but it seems they have a negative impact on battery life and when the batteries are the most expensive part of the vehicle that doesn't seem to be the best idea. Hydrogen, when the infrastructure is rolled out properly, will enable vehicles to be fully refuelled, at no detriment to the vehicle, in little if any more time than it currently takes to fill a tank with petrol or diesel. Remember that some of the first cars were battery electrics, but the internal combustion engine soon proved to be more practical - I think the speed of filling with liquid fuel must have had a lot to do with that, and hydrogen can have the same advantage. The technology exists now, it just needs to be rolled out. I can't help feeling that government money - whether national or local - would be better put into hydrogen filling stations that can be used by, potentially, thousands of vehicles per day rather than the current plan of providing charging points that can be used by maybe 2 or 3 vehicles per day, and only then if someone else isn't parked in the way.
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Minxy



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 214
Location: West Northants

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer the OPís original question at the moment I see the lure of old cars will wane significantly with generations. My son is 20 and shows absolutely zero interest in my old cars. Iím 60 years old so petrol will still be available in my life time which ,right or wrong, is all Iím worried about. Personally I can still see a Ďform of petrolí being available long into the future albeit at a cost. Converting cars to run on alternative engines is widely done today so the step to run on alternative fuels should not be insurmountable given the progress that will be made in the future in refining electric cars be that grid fed or hydrogen powered.
As I mentioned above my wife and I will likely buy an electric car in the next couple of months, if a hydrogen car was available and infrastructure in place I would also consider one of those but at the moment I need a car now, I would like to support the green effort and electric cars are available with a comprehensive support network so there is no real alternative.
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badhuis



Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 1025
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not adverse against electric cars, but just cannot see the future for the many households which do not have their own garage or parking space next to the house.
In my street I am the only one with the luxury to have a garage, and as such I can see me getting an electric car in the future knowing that charging it will not be a problem every night. But how would that work for all the other houses in my street? Most households have one or more cars which are parked on the street. They do not have the facility to charge them even if they wanted.
This is a common situation in every medium to big town where there are many houses without garages.
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Penman



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
Where I live the street has 48 houses, about 36 cars parked on the road and 6 lamp posts, it is suggested street lamps could have 2 charge points each but 2 of ours are actually on/near corners.
and usin charge points like those would depend on people parking sensibly so that 2 cars could get to each one anyway.
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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
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Location: Cheshire

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Penman wrote:
Hi
Where I live the street has 48 houses, about 36 cars parked on the road and 6 lamp posts, it is suggested street lamps could have 2 charge points each but 2 of ours are actually on/near corners.
and usin charge points like those would depend on people parking sensibly so that 2 cars could get to each one anyway.


Then just wait for the compensation claims to flood in from people tripping over cables on the pavement Rolling Eyes

RJ
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Bitumen Boy



Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1300
Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick wrote:
Penman wrote:
Hi
Where I live the street has 48 houses, about 36 cars parked on the road and 6 lamp posts, it is suggested street lamps could have 2 charge points each but 2 of ours are actually on/near corners.
and usin charge points like those would depend on people parking sensibly so that 2 cars could get to each one anyway.


Then just wait for the compensation claims to flood in from people tripping over cables on the pavement Rolling Eyes

RJ


+1. Providing roadside charging points safely, at least according to modern interpretations of the word, is next to impossible. Especially since councils have turned so many street lamps off!
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Minxy



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
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Location: West Northants

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.......then instead of charging at home to use the car to go to work, charge the car at work to go home. There is currently circa 5million pounds put aside to supply owners of electric cars a charging pod for free or a small contribution for some of the more advanced ones. It is almost certain in the near future, with advancing battery technology, that a quick charge once a fortnight perhaps while you do a supermarket shop, go to the gym, walk the dog etc, will be sufficient for the average motorist.
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Bitumen Boy



Joined: 26 Jan 2012
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Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Minxy wrote:
.......then instead of charging at home to use the car to go to work, charge the car at work to go home. There is currently circa 5million pounds put aside to supply owners of electric cars a charging pod for free or a small contribution for some of the more advanced ones. It is almost certain in the near future, with advancing battery technology, that a quick charge once a fortnight perhaps while you do a supermarket shop, go to the gym, walk the dog etc, will be sufficient for the average motorist.


Charging at work isn't going to be much good for retired folk... or is retirement to be abolished as "old fashioned"? Actually charging at work isn't going to be a practical proposition for a lot of people who have jobs - not every workplace has its own carpark, in fact a great many don't have any parking at all. I nipped to Screwfix on the industrial estate the other day and the road is lined with cars parked up while their owners are at work, how are those to be charged?

It's possible that a battery will be developed that will keep going on a fortnightly quick charge, but it isn't certain and IMO it's pretty unlikely. With hydrogen, however, the technology exists today to fill a tank quickly every other week - or just as often as may be necessary. Isn't that worth persuing?
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Minxy



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 214
Location: West Northants

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bitumen Boy wrote:
Minxy wrote:
.......then instead of charging at home to use the car to go to work, charge the car at work to go home. There is currently circa 5million pounds put aside to supply owners of electric cars a charging pod for free or a small contribution for some of the more advanced ones. It is almost certain in the near future, with advancing battery technology, that a quick charge once a fortnight perhaps while you do a supermarket shop, go to the gym, walk the dog etc, will be sufficient for the average motorist.


Charging at work isn't going to be much good for retired folk... or is retirement to be abolished as "old fashioned"? Actually charging at work isn't going to be a practical proposition for a lot of people who have jobs - not every workplace has its own carpark, in fact a great many don't have any parking at all. I nipped to Screwfix on the industrial estate the other day and the road is lined with cars parked up while their owners are at work, how are those to be charged?

It's possible that a battery will be developed that will keep going on a fortnightly quick charge, but it isn't certain and IMO it's pretty unlikely. With hydrogen, however, the technology exists today to fill a tank quickly every other week - or just as often as may be necessary. Isn't that worth persuing?


Certainly hydrogen is worth pursuing and indeed is by, I believe, Honda and Toyota but I would imagine as EVís are now getting quite mainstream most manufactures will be persuing that market in terms of investment.
Charging at work was just one example I gave, I appreciate that might not suit everyone but there are many other options anywhere you may leave your car for an hour (or less)
The electric car we are considering can be fast charged in 45 minutes at 50kW. With advances in battery cooling and heating currently being introduced this will be even speedier, this coupled with current chargers being upgraded to 100kW at the moment means the technology is practically with us now.
Iím certainly not a massive EV convert itís just that itís here now when I need it and progressing at a rapid rate, if in 10 years time hydrogen catches on and is more versatile and affordable I would happily swap.
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Keith D



Joined: 16 Oct 2008
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Location: Upper Swan, Western Australia

PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The big advantage of electric motors is their total lack of emissions.

However, it takes a certain amount of energy to move a car between two points with a heavy load inside. That energy is currently derived from either diesel or petrol. Electrical energy has to be provided for these vehicles. You don't get anything for nothing. It must come from the supply companies.

Without having done any calculations, it appears to me that the required power for a nations vehicles will at least triple the power currently generated. I understand that the UK is generating so much "green" power that it is experiencing great difficulty in keeping the voltage tolerance down to +/- 5%. I was rather surprised at ukdave2002's remark that less than 50% of the UK's electricity is generated from fossil fuel. According to an article in our papers, the UK generates only 10-11% of green electricity. Perhaps nuclear fuel is still used?

I seriously wonder if the use of electric cars will be anywhere near as "clean" as people predict.

I am not against the use of electric cars. I rode in one about eighteen months ago through central London and I was very impressed with the smoothness, acceleration and complete silence.

In Australia most cars never leave the city and it is felt that with our mainly suburban traffic, electric cars will be successful. However, country driving, over very long distances, will be served with conventional cars and trucks.

Keith
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Rusty



Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 186
Location: Bunbury, Western Australia

PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keith is dead right !
All that running the entire vehicle fleet on electricity will do is shift the pollution out of the city's and into the landscape around power generation sites. Out here the "renewable" electricity of choice seems to be wind farms, and the problem with them and a lot of other renewables is there effectiveness is controlled by environmental factors such as available wind, sun, wave action etc .Hydro and geo thermal are different but could never be large enough contributors to the grid to make it work ! When the conditions aren't right for the "green" power sites to run at peak load the slack will have to be picked up by other "base load" sites that are impractical to run at idle until needed and under such a system would almost certainly be aging badly and maintained as little as possible causing other reliability issues.

I like the idea of hydrogen fuel cells, but the only way I can see that technology working is if in several decades the boffins work out nuclear fusion (as opposed to the current nuclear "fission") there would in theory be enough clean electricity to produce all the hydrogen needed from other than hydrocarbon sources. (if they don't blow us all up first )

As for converting a classic car to electric of all variations, I see it as only a minor thing for those interested in such conversions anyway. And whoever said their kids aren't interested is also right, its mostly a nostalgia movement for those of us with memories of using there vehicles in mainstream use that has encouraged us to have a passion.
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Miken



Joined: 24 Dec 2012
Posts: 248

PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To get back to old cars , i still can't imagine many enthusiasts having the technical knowledge or inclination to fit a hydrogen fuel cell into their Austin 7 or Morris 8.
Maybe a tiny percentage will (and are) going battery electric with MGs Minors and Beetles (several on utube).
I can't see many governments allowing enthusiastic amateurs to play with highly explosive gases in their home workshops.
Reading online it seems you can DESIGN from scratch a piston engine to run on hydrogen but their is no real point due to inefficiencies.
My guess is that tying to convert some ancient car engine would be even less fruitfull.
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1452
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally canít see the attraction of converting a classic car to electric. I mean, what our hobby is all about is keeping ancient machines running, against all odds at some times.

Miken, As for your point about governments Ďworryingí about amateurs playing with highly explosive gas, we already are. I was once told by an ex-army friend that one gallon af petrol has the same/equivalent explosive power as 18lbs (pounds) of TNT and I think most of us are quite blasť about handling petrol giving little thought the actual power that can be unleashed. Our main concern will be fire and making sure there are no naked flames about.

Art
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