Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[roverdriver]

Your saga with the A & O is very interesting, and you are very strong willed not to succumb to frustration.

You say that ignition timing is correct, but how many degrees of advance does the manual control allow? I am wondering if when you set the timing as 'correct' and that allows you to manually start the engine, perhaps the manual advance is not giving you sufficient advance for normal running.

Just a thought,
Dane.
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Dane- roverdriver but not a Viking.

[Rdover]

[Rdover]

ring a ring a rosies .......

I was chatting to a mate who is also an ex-VW nut (I had many a bug in the past) and he thought that the 009 dizzy only gave a tiny amount of advance at lowish revs so I did a little research and found this graph



The 009 only gives up to 6deg advance at up to 2000 rpm rather than the 35deg I need

So I'm back to looking at timing and reinstating manual advance and a kit of rods and linkages has been ordered. The only way to be sure that this is the cause of low performance is to test it on the road/under load. If it is the reason then I'm mightily relieved if it is not then at least I have something else to play with whilst pottering through the countryside
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Richard

[roverdriver]

Although I can't speak for the Alldays, I will do some hunting and see what I can find out about the ignition timing on other cars of a like era.

As you realise, distributors with automatic advance are not the ideal on cars of your era, as one needs to have detonation occurring a smidgeon after TDC when crank starting, and then well before TDC for best efficient running.

I am wondering if it is feasible to make a slip-fitting for the distributor, so that you can then use linkages to move the whole distributor body for manual advance. Then you could have the best of both worlds- part manual and part automatic timing control.

I am not sure why you would be using a lead additive fuel. Your car was built long before lead was introduced to petrol.

Good luck with the continuing project,
Dane.
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Dane- roverdriver but not a Viking.

[Rdover]

It has steering wheel mounted ignition control but I disconnected it when I fitted the coil conversion. I am remaking the linkage and will have plenty of advance and will see how it goes then.

Cheers
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Richard

[Rdover]

Next update (pics to follow)

I received my linkage kit from Illston and Robson and it was almost immediately knocked over by my newly teenaged daughter. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth and I finally got all the parts identified and put back in their rightful place. and after some hours in partial thought I had a plan of campaign to make up a suitable linkage to connect the manual ignition timing control on the steering wheel/column to the distributor.

I moved the original linkage 'V' rocker part (for want of a better name) onto the same carrier as the throttle linkage and made up a short linkage from it to the Dizzy. I then spent about 90 minutes trying to get the long rod from the base of the steering column to the rear part of the rocker to work without it fouling either the chassis or the hand throttle control arm.

Eventually I realised I had to do something radical to move the timing control arm 180 degrees from the throttle but every time I tried to bend the rod end it broke off! Luckily the kit came with rose joint rod ends and a bit of threading (M5) I had a suitably angled and bent rod the correct length and it all works perfectly albeit with the timing control working in the opposite direction than I wanted.

Now all that remains is to wait for better weather and go for a drive and see if it works. Fingers crossed.
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Richard

[roverdriver]

Good luck with it, Rdover. I feel somewhat confident that more advance than the centrifugal can give, will certainly be of benefit.

Incidentally, in the cars with manual spark control that I have owned, the retard position is at the upper extreme of the quadrant at the steering wheel, and full advance to the lower extreme.

Please, please make sure that in the retarded position, that it is retarded enough to make cranking safe, and never wrap your thumb around the handle.
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Dane- roverdriver but not a Viking.

[roverdriver]

Rdover, I promised to find more information about degrees of advance. Unfortunately some of my searches for information drew a blank, but this one is fairly comprehensive-

http://www.fordmodelt.net/downloads/Model%20T%20Ignition.pdf

Bear in mind that the 'distributor' is a low- tension roller timer and that the current is provided by the flywheel 'magneto', but pages 2 and 3 show how large the range is on the T. Remember that the T is basically a 1908 design, even though still being built in 1927.

I hope this is of some help.
Dane.
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Dane- roverdriver but not a Viking.

[Rdover]

[Rdover]

Sometimes it takes an experienced eye and another brain to spot a problem.

Hamish, a fellow VCC member and Renault AX owner of many decades popped over this morning and spent 2 hours with me going over everything. He thought the carburation seemed a bit odd but, given everything I'd tried, the problem was clearly not there. Sparks and timing thereof was also deemed within limits so attention returned to the mechanics of the engine.

Valve lift: yes there is wear on the cam but again it is within acceptable limits and I can recheck that once I've cleaned everything up and reassembled the valves and springs after the de-coke. The tappets are fine as is compression and there are no nasty noises and everything turns over smoothly ... and on we went.

I dug out my maintenance log and we re-examined what had been going wrong and when and we mulled over my sill mistake of 2 years ago when I loosened what turned out to be the timing chain tensioner and lost the valve timing. I was given the correct information by the only other 12/14 A&O owner out there and took the car to an expert who sorted it out for me. His parting words to me were "the valve timing is not exactly adjustable. You can only move it a tooth at a time and each tooth makes a massive difference.". Prophetic words.

After checking TDC, valve movement (ie getting it 'on the rock' at cyl 1 exhaust TDC) Hamish thought that the stated valve timing of 10deg ATDC was a little odd and I noticed that it was massively more than that. In fact, when I measured it on the flywheel there was almost 3 times as much retard as there should have been - around 100mm! This meant that everything was happening far too late. Off came the fan belt, pulley, starting handle and timing cover leaving very little left bolted to the engine! Hamish counted 17 teeth on the cam gear so each tooth was 21.17 degrees. As 10deg = 30.8mm on the flywheel and it was showing ~100mm instead of 30.8mm it must be 1 tooth out! Was this the one large problem I was looking for?

So we turned the engine over a few times to check everything and it all looks fine and logic tells me that we have found the problem. It was not that obvious but I am now much happier and confident that it will run far better once I reassemble it.

Job 1: clean everything. De-coke, polish and skim mating faces. Make patterns for new gaskets and send off to have them made. Send exhaust manifold off to be ceramic coated (or similar)
Job 2: check and regrind valves then remeasure valve lift before refitting valve caps and testing compression.
Job 3: clean inlet manifold, remove the econimiser valve and repair the various holes left. Repair air heating duct.
Job 4: refit manifolds, carb with recommended settings and all linkages.

Finally I'll be able to then test drive it in a state of panic in case this was not, after all, the problem.

Lots of photos being taken and I will post up more as I get through the jobs.
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Richard

[roverdriver]

Now that sounds very hopeful.
Fingers are crossed and I await further news with a worm on my tongue- (with baited breath!)
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Dane- roverdriver but not a Viking.

[Rdover]

Gaskets

Exhaust: seem to be almost identical to modern Ford 2 pin metal gaskets - 37mm id 66mm between pins - £2 each

Inlet: Made a pattern, contacted a few bespoke gasket places and had a quote for £50 for the first one and £15 for each one thereafter. Then another place came back with £16 each plus vat then, after I'd sent my pattern to the 2nd company I got an email from Dobson Gaskets quoting £1.88 plus vat each!

I was gobsmacked and called to make sure they'd got the decimal point in the right place, which they had, so a bit of brass rubbing later (the manifold is in the car awaiting dropping off for repair) and another template was winging it was to some dark satanic mill.

Result!

The exhaust manifold and air heater cover are being fettled/repaired locally and then I'm getting them coated ready for refitting. All things taken into consideration I should ahve it ready for road testing later next week.

I'm nervous already!
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Richard

[Rdover]

Some photos for you, in some kind of order from fully assembled (minus the carb) through to the bare engine.

The economiser has been removed and the holes left behind covered using a couple of pennies from 1900 and 1906 respectively. I discovered that the original ID of the inlet manifold flange was 36mm but had been sleeved to properly fix the flange to the manifold. This has been kept for practical reasons. The air intake cover has been welded and the faces milled flat.

You can see from the photos that the engine paint got burned black. This was when the radiator broke 2 years ago and the engine started to overheat. No damage was done barring the paint which has now been wire brushed off and repainted red (no pic cos it's not finished!).

You can also see the handmade inlet gasket with the 5 or 6 mm restriction!

The jetting has been returned to suggested start point of 100 Comp and 60 main with the 188 venturi tube ready for refitting, the exhaust gaskets have been made to fit and I'm just waiting for the inlet gaskets to arrive.










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Richard

[colwyn500]

I really like the pennies. My cylinder head has an old half-penny as a core plug which I refuse to take out.

I am fascinated by your saga and the way you tell it; you will really have earned it once the car achieves the punchy, smooth running you are seeking.

[roverdriver]

You are doing really interesting work. Congratulations on the project so far. I am looking forward to more updates.

Dane.
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Dane- roverdriver but not a Viking.