Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.
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Rdover
Joined: 26 Nov 2007 Posts: 413
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Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:46 am Post subject: |
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The last bits arrived yesterday and a couple of hours in the garage paid dividends.
The engine has now been repainted, the gaskets all made to fit, the inlet manifold polished and the flange sleeve smoothed out and everything is ready to fit and test which I hope will happen this evening. The copper washers are a perfect fit so I'm confident compression will be as good as it can get.
I can heartily recommend Dobson Gaskets ....
Photo of the engine, painted, with valve caps and gaskets all in place
_________________ Richard |
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kevin2306
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1359 Location: nr Llangollen, north wales
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Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Looking great, cant wait for the first fire up!
kev |
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Rdover
Joined: 26 Nov 2007 Posts: 413
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Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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kevin2306 wrote: | Looking great, cant wait for the first fire up!
kev |
Thanks, I'm bricking it! _________________ Richard |
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kevin2306
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1359 Location: nr Llangollen, north wales
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Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Rdover wrote: | kevin2306 wrote: | Looking great, cant wait for the first fire up!
kev |
Thanks, I'm bricking it! |
Its gonna be a great success, I can sense it
kev |
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Rdover
Joined: 26 Nov 2007 Posts: 413
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Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Sometimes knowing the problem is a relief.
After weeks of fettling and fixing and changing and testing the car is not a jot better than it was, in fact it is worse. Hamish (VCC guru) came round again to assist and we double checked:
ignition timing and points - all okay
fuel delivery and carburation - again okay
compression - absolutely fine
valve timing - changed from 10d atdc to tdc and it ran like a bag of nails
The conclusion is that the cam has worn. This is a new experience for me but I've been told that once the hardened surface of the lobes on the cam wear through the ongoing deterioration can be quite rapid and it is the front face (lifting face) of the lobes that are most prone. This would mean, logically, that although the engine will run and the valves will lift to a decent height they will not stay open for very long (in fact decreasingly so) resulting in massively reduced power.
Given that when I have the engine set 'by the book' it runs at its best, and that over the last 200 miles it has got progressively weaker (even though I've found other problems along the way) the cam is the last thing to look at. This requires the radiator and front crossmember to be removed, which means I either have to remove the wings or cut them to allow the retaining bolts to be removed!
Although I'm very disappointed to not drive the season opener in Dumfries, I am excited at the prospect of fixing the engine once and for all and having the chance to have a new cam profile designed to maximise the power. The Dumfries weekend will see us run as tail-end-charlie and the Alldays will be up and running brilliantly again in time for the Strathmore Extravaganza at Glamis Castle. If its not the cam then I'll have a nervous breakdown.
Photos and rebuild info will follow ..... _________________ Richard |
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kevin2306
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1359 Location: nr Llangollen, north wales
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Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:50 am Post subject: |
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what sort of cost is involved in getting the cam re-profiled?
kev |
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Rdover
Joined: 26 Nov 2007 Posts: 413
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Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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kevin2306 wrote: | what sort of cost is involved in getting the cam re-profiled?
kev |
I got the engine dismantled this evening, just got to figure out how to get the oil pump drive gear out and then how the cam itself comes out and then I can see just how bad it is.
I felt the lobes through where the cam followers sit and they are all like widow's peaks so that is definitely the problem - very little duration!
I've heard of prices from £250 for reprofiling but I suspect this needs a new cam and that is probably around £1,000. Painful but considering it will take the car back to the full 14HP and make it a speedy and very reliable little number it will be money well spent. Without it that car is simply a pretty museum piece and of no practical value at all.
I just hope the engine does not need to come out to get the cam out! _________________ Richard |
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Rdover
Joined: 26 Nov 2007 Posts: 413
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Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:35 am Post subject: |
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And things move on .....
I got the endoscope into the engine and the cam is so badly worn that each time it runs it is getting noticeably worse and the metal from the lobes MUST have gone somewhere. I checked the oil and it is just a bit more glittery than it should be.
I've been advised that if I'm going to the effort to take it 75% apart I may as well go the whole hog and get it done properly. This means losing an entire season's events (I'll still go but not be driving) and spending many thousands I don't really have. It will mean, however, that I'll have an engine that is 100% perfect making top power and still totally reliable and will never need touched again.
I'm gutted on one level but also relieved I know the problem and have no choice as to what to do. _________________ Richard |
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roverdriver
Joined: 18 Oct 2008 Posts: 1210 Location: 100 miles from Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
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Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Sorry to hear how bad the shaft is, but at least now you know! When that is sorted, and having done all of the other fettling that you have achieved, I believe that the Alldays will settle in to give you plenty of faithful service.
Good luck,
Dane. _________________ Dane- roverdriver but not a Viking. |
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PAUL BEAUMONT
Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Posts: 1281 Location: Barnsley S. Yorks
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Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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I am sure that this problem is both annoying and worrying, but as an engineer it is also fascinating. How do you go about establishing the design, not only of the lobes but also all the bearing journals, oil ways, sprocket fixings etc. Sounds like quite a challenge.
Had a quick Google and Newman cams look like a good place to start.
Paul |
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Rdover
Joined: 26 Nov 2007 Posts: 413
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Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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roverdriver wrote: | Sorry to hear how bad the shaft is, but at least now you know! When that is sorted, and having done all of the other fettling that you have achieved, I believe that the Alldays will settle in to give you plenty of faithful service.
Good luck,
Dane. |
I spoke with an engine rebuilder last night who questioned whether the cam would exhibit wear quite that quickly and got me to feel each of the lobes in turn. I found that all the inlet lobes are pointy by roughly the same amount but the exhaust lobes had a pronounced flat on each of them. All the valves have the same amount of lift (6 to 8mm) so wear is quite even. I can't feel any roughness or grooves where the cam follower has worn into the lobes.
The cam can only be removed for examination by almost complete dismantling of the engine and that is more than I can face at the moment.
There is, however, one last, little, thin straw I can clutch at which I will investigate tonight (it will take about 1 hour's work) and if, by some miracle, it is the cause of the problem I will be embarrassed, annoyed yet relieved in equal [huge] measure. On past experience though it is likely to be another blind alley.
More later ..... _________________ Richard |
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PAUL BEAUMONT
Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Posts: 1281 Location: Barnsley S. Yorks
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Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Just an opinion, but 6-8mm of valve lift does not seem to be out of place to me!
Paul |
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Rdover
Joined: 26 Nov 2007 Posts: 413
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Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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PAUL BEAUMONT wrote: | Just an opinion, but 6-8mm of valve lift does not seem to be out of place to me!
Paul |
8 is okay, 6 is a little low but I'm told anything above 5mm is acceptable. When I first got a finger onto a cam lobe it felt much more pointed than I would have expected and assumed that all 8 would be the same. I then found the exhaust was different!
Alldays had a reputation for being reliable but not fast, something I'd be entirely happy with. So far it has been reliably frustrating.
I tell you what, I'll give £10 to charity on behalf of the person who guesses what the straw I'm clutch at is. _________________ Richard |
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colwyn500
Joined: 21 Oct 2012 Posts: 1745 Location: Nairn, Scotland
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Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Impossible to make any meaningful contribution after you have followed all this through so thoroughly but is there a possibilty that the cam-followers themselves are worn through the hardening and gradually reducing valve lift? |
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Rdover
Joined: 26 Nov 2007 Posts: 413
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Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Diagnosis confirmed and wasn't the embarrassing "you did check the exhaust wasn't blocked"
Cam AND cam followers are very worn. The surfaces are grey and mottled, cam follower rollers are loose and scored and jamming. Engine is coming out tonight to be taken asap to the engine specialist for partial stripping and checking. Once we know what's needing done they'll fix what's needing fixed and I'll get a box of bits back to rebuild myself.
I know I should get the whole engine stripped but it is only the cam side of things that's worn so we'll start there. I'll save £000s by re assembling myself.
I'm steeling myself for a HUGE bill for the cam. _________________ Richard |
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