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1909 Alldays and Onions 2 seat Runabout
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kevin2306



Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1359
Location: nr Llangollen, north wales

PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely superb, what a lovely job.
Whilst you obviously want to tinker and fettle, it doesnt seem that far off at all,
running really smoothly and clean revving too!

Well done

Kev Very Happy
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's still not 'romping' away and it's now a little rich (plugs sooty rather than black) so I'll wait until after the weekend and lean the comp jet out to 110 (if I can find a drill bit to suit) but richen the main to 70.

The advance/retard does not make the difference it should but I'm not sure how responsive it might ever be. All I know is that if I leave it advanced when starting it tries to break my wrist!

It starts perfectly, runs very nicely, and will do fine for the weekend. It's just fettling now, which is the fun part.

One of the problems in tuning this engine is that you have to re-calibrate your expectations!
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Richard
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roverdriver



Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 1210
Location: 100 miles from Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The car sounds very good, Richard. A credit to your determination.
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kevin2306



Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1359
Location: nr Llangollen, north wales

PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing that strikes me with running engines of this age is you dont actually know what the were like when new?
Although, im sure if you get the mixture somewhere near it will help loads.

Kev
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the weekend was meant to have been dedicated to driving in Argyll on Saturday and Biggar on Sunday but the weather, and my nerves, had other ideas. Those who know me personally will say that I'm not the most nervous of people but when I get the jitters I go to pieces so fast people get hit by the shrapnel ... and so it transpired in Saturday afternoon. It started off so well .........[scooby doo wavy lines]

We were due to take part in the 3 Lochs Classic car run from Rhu and, like last year, I decided to drive from my home outside of Newton Mearns through the Glaswegian suburbs, past Ibrox, through the Clyde Tunnel and finally all along the A82, a rather fast dual carriageway, to Dumbuck and Helensburgh for a fuel stop and then the last mile and a half to Rhu. Total distance of about 45 miles. The weather was mild, windy with light rain showers but we had a nice picnic and were due to meet up with our friends Ian & Michelle in their 1972 MG Roadster.

So, to be at Rhu for the start time of 9.30 for 10am we left home at 8ish and the car started first crank and although I knew it was running rich I hoped it would go as nicely as it had on my 25 mile test run. Sure enough, in light traffic (we didn't meet up with Ian & Michelle) it ran very nicely and we tripped along at a steady 25mph to 35mph all the way without any drama. One tends to become very sensitive to any changes in running 'feel' to the point of being possibly oversensitive and as we reached the outskirts of Helensburgh I felt the car was not pulling quite as well as it had been when we left but I could not tell if that was down to wind, fuel or my imagining of something going wrong. Still, we got to the fuel station, and filled up with 14 litres of super-unleaded giving a fuel consumption of around 12mpg which was a little low but still not too bad.

As we left to drive that last 2 miles to Rhu the car was going slower and slower just like before and nothing I did made any difference. We made to the Sailing Club (the HQ of the run) in 2nd gear but the car was not happy and neither was I. My immdeiate reaction was to open the bonnet and start diagnosis ably assisted by everyone else. I opted to stay at base rather than risk breaking down on the run (just as well - ithe rain stoating down in most places) and try and sort the car so we could drive home. I phoned the engine rebuilder, kvetched about the valve insert coming loose (it hadn't) and generally checked everything and found that at least 1 cylinder was not running properly thus the loss in power. After an hour of fiddling we went for a test run and it was great ... for about half a mile and then it got very weak again so we headed back and as a last ditch attempt I swapped to my reserve battery (there is no charging system so the coil needs a battery) and it ran perfectly! Problem solved.

We enjoyed the picnic and the social gathering and at 5pm we got ourselves wrapped up and ready for the drive home in the pissing rain and gales. Off we went, with Ian & Michelle acting as tail gunner, with the car running well enough but suffering from the head wind. All went fine, apart from a moronic woman in a white Clio who nearly crashed into both of us on the A82 as we rattled into Glasgow. We got split up for a while but the MG caught us up just as we entered the Clyde Tunnel, possibly the most nerve-racking part of the journey. In we went and I allowed the car to gather as much speed as possible to make the climb out a little easier and up we went but just as the exit came into view the engine died.

A sudden engine stop like that means only 1 thing, fuel. Cars scattered behind us as we rolled to a halt and everyone went into panic mode. Ian's car does not have hazard lights so he and Michelle waved cars around us whilst I grabbed one of the spare fuel cans and poured it in. Then we noticed it had gone quiet so they guys in the Control Room had spotted us and closed the tunnel. Then we heard the rumbling of something big with flashing hazard lights whilst I was madly trying to get the car started and yelling at Jacquie to get into the damn car and hold the f'ing throttle open. She was refusing to get in in case it was some mad lorry that was going to smash into the car (and me, so much for true love!). It was the Control Room's recovery Defender coming to assist!

The very nice chap was very calming and asked what the trouble was and laughed when I said I'd just run out of fuel. "not got a fuel gauge then?" he said with a smile. I'd just got the car started again (pretty easily although it didn't feel like it) and we all climbed in whilst Mr Glasgow City Cooncil man told us to take our time and that he'd follow us out and not give the green light to the traffic until we'd got a half mile head start to get off the carriageway and back onto the side streets around Govan.

Meanwhile, out in the open the weather had gone from bad to worse and we were hunkered down behind the windscreen trying to shelter from the storm. It took ages but we managed to crawl slowly out the Clyde valley ever homewards with the last 5 miles at under 15mph and as we got home we looked like drowned rats. Needless to say I was so traumatised I couldn't sleep that night and no way could I face another days driving in foul weather at Biggar. Getting the car back after an engine rebuild on Monday and trying to do 2 long runs 5 days later was rather ambitious anyway.

Sunday was spent playing with jetting as follows:
idle - 55 (was too rich at 60)
comp - 120
main - 70
this was far too rich (very sooty plugs) so I went back a stage:

Idle - 55 (was too lean at 50 and wouldn't tick over so went to 55)
comp - 90
main - 50
the car ran quite nicely, pulled up the hills but was underpowered. After 5 miles I checked the plugs which were turning white so this evening will see me richening up the main jet. The comp seems okay as the car accelerates smoothly although slowly.
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kevin2306



Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1359
Location: nr Llangollen, north wales

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just shake down issues I reakon, a bit more fettling and you will have trouble free motoring Smile

Interesting that is doesnt have a charging system, wold it have been magnito ignition origionally?
could you introduce a dynamo anywhere?

kev Very Happy
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a magneto to coil conversion a couple of years ago to provide a reliable ignition system without which I would never have got the car to the point it is at now. That meant having no charging system unless I added one, which I'm considering now.

A correct, period magneto (Bosch DU4) would cost me ~£350 plus the same again to refurbish and still not be reliable. I can put in a small car battery and Dynastart system for under £350 total which gives me charging, reliable ignition AND electric start. Given it starts so easily now I can fit a medium sized leisure battery (and replace it every 3 years) for £50 and carry a wee solar panel (which I already have) to charge the battery a bit every time I stop for a break. It is also cheap and easy to fit a small generator beside the gearbox which solves the problem as well.

As with all things with this car, getting it running the way it should as a fun and reliable machine is the priority and I am very very close indeed. I have a strong engine which is now starting easily, idling beautifully and running smoothly but needing dialled in properly. I suspect the ignition timing needs some work but those are the circles one must go round in. Once I can drive it 100 miles in a day I'll worry about battery power Very Happy

Anyone got a wee generator they are willing to donate?
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kevin2306



Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1359
Location: nr Llangollen, north wales

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dont blame you for binning the magneto, when I raced classic bikes many years ago it was always the mag that curtailed the fun..despite several rebuilds etc.
There was a superb engineer that helped many of the racers come up with ignition systems on engines that had no generator systems

http://www.kirbyrowbotham.com/

May be worth having a chat with him.

Incidentally, the symptoms you describe were pretty much spot on when the electronic ignition (original 70's lucas system) on my Singer was breaking down. A cheap Accuspark distributor made a huge difference.
Shame you cant harness some F1 technology

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_f1_racing/8763.html

Kev
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevin2306 wrote:
Dont blame you for binning the magneto, when I raced classic bikes many years ago it was always the mag that curtailed the fun..despite several rebuilds etc.
There was a superb engineer that helped many of the racers come up with ignition systems on engines that had no generator systems

http://www.kirbyrowbotham.com/

May be worth having a chat with him.

Incidentally, the symptoms you describe were pretty much spot on when the electronic ignition (original 70's lucas system) on my Singer was breaking down. A cheap Accuspark distributor made a huge difference.
Shame you cant harness some F1 technology

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_f1_racing/8763.html

Kev

Thanks, I'll look into them.

I'm going to carry a spare coil as well, £20 well spent!
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colwyn500



Joined: 21 Oct 2012
Posts: 1745
Location: Nairn, Scotland

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An excellent write-up of your experiences at the weekend. I really feel the stress.
At least you gave it a go.
Also nice to see the good side of folk with the helpful and empathic tunnel guy.
Good luck with the ongoing quest.
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More fettling

Main jet taken out to 60, then 70 and it just got better and better so a final tweak to 75 and all was lost. It was surging, pinking and suddenly very sooty as well so back to 70 on the main. A final test drive before light started to fail and no better but when I took out all the plugs I saw that no 2 was okay but the others were very black.

I started to look for a culprit other than the jetting and tested the batteries which were fine, holding charge at between 12.6v and 13.2v. Finally I tested the coil and Mr Google told me to expect 0.75 to 0.81 ohms between the side terminals and 10k or 11k ohms between output and side terminal. I was getting 2.45 and 7,450 respectively - not good. I suspect a fried coil which works okay when cool but then breaks down after a while resulting in a dodgy spark and poor running.

I'll buy a new one tomorrow and see what difference that makes. I can hardly expect to fettle the jetting properly if the spark is unreliable and inconsistent. If seems the current problems are down to new fangled technology Rolling Eyes Very Happy
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not the coil ... totally. The new coil improves things but not substantially.

Question.
What would cause Cylinder 2 to burn perfectly yet the other 3 are running rich?

Answer?
Tappets?

discuss ....
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kevin2306



Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1359
Location: nr Llangollen, north wales

PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It does seem to point to ignition / spark issues though, especially so as it deteriorates with use.
Are the tappets too tight perhaps and reducing compression as they get hot?

Kev
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a bit confused by it as well.

Battery seems okay. Drops from 13.08v when fully charged to 12.62v when running but then stays there for hours of running.

New coil (Bosch blue)
dizzy is ok,
points ok (would either work or not, not only on 1 cylinder)
timing ok I think, certainly close enough
HT leads are new
plugs are new

starts easily but no longer runs quite as smoothly after 150 miles.

I can't think of anything apart from tappets that could make 1 out of 3 cylinders run properly.

Time to take the car back to the engine builder methinks. This needs professional attention.
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excels



Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 16
Location: East London, South Africa

PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are the tappets clearances at the moment?
What is the oil consumption like? The rings might still need some bedding in. Have you done a compression test?
I presume the valve guides have been replaced and the valve and valve guide clearances are OK. Valves not a bit tight interfering with valve timing?
Valve springs have +- equal tension?
Spark plug gaps?
I presume that he "modern" distributer should be up to spec. No wear on the distributer cam? Points gap correct? Condenser OK? Proper earth between battery and engine? Coil polarity correct?
Intake or Exhaust Manifold gas flow problem? Undersize manifold gasket?

Just brain storming! I have had all these problems on my cars.

Engine does sound great! Congratulations!

Regards

Tom
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1914, 1918, 1923 Ford "T"; 1928 Ford "A" Roadster + Phaeton, 1922 Maxwell, 1926 Chrysler, 1927 Velie, 1928 Chevrolet, 1928 Whippet 96, 1935 Armstrong Siddeley 17HP, 1950 Morris Tourer, 1951 Morris, 1953 Morris,1958 Morris (All Minors), 1957 Austin A95
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