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1909 Alldays and Onions 2 seat Runabout
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colwyn500



Joined: 21 Oct 2012
Posts: 1745
Location: Nairn, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard, I finally found a YouTube of the Wheeler Dealers veteran car. Very entertaining and the presenters couldn't contain their joy , as you observed.
But I would find the sort of prices you have to, pay for those essential, one-off re manufactured items more than I could bear. So good luck with those gears and well done for your persistence
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, it is amazing what you can become used to!

Looking at the price of repairing classic car gearboxes £1000 for a fully rebuilt unit which is, I suspect, genuinely unique (only 4 of that model exist and they changed the gearbox for 1912 and mine is the only 1912 or later one surviving) is not bad.
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colwyn500



Joined: 21 Oct 2012
Posts: 1745
Location: Nairn, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Point taken Richard . And after all, despite the fact I know you wouldn't part with it, as a working veteran car it is worth spending money on. I was out of touch with just how valuable these machines are until Wheeler Dealers filled me in on this!
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Value in the veteran car world is impossible to measure until something actually sells, a discussion I had with my insurance company this year when agreeing the value.

Car insurance is there to indemnify you against a total loss and, in theory, put you back in the same position you were in immediately before the incident (but without unreasonable betterment). In the case of a vehicle which all but unique and is unlikely to ever be sold how do put a value on it.

In my case I looked at how much I've spent, added in the time I've spent on it (at £50 per hour) and then reduced it by a good chunk and presented that to the Insurer who accepted it. To buy a similarly aged car in the same condition (or more original) but less rare would probably only cost 2/3rds the 'value' of mine or perhaps only half of what mine might achieve at auction just now.

The odd thing is, such rarity is often something that devalues a car unless it is a very well known marque. Valuing old cars is like valuing art - get the marketing right and find 2 people keen for it and the price goes up.

Either way, a car that is fully restored but is unpleasant to use or cant be used is, in my opinion, almost worthless so I'll continue to spend the money to have the car running ever better and more reliably. I get more enjoyment out of it than a 2 week beach holiday which would probaly cost be a few thousand each year anyway Cool
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colwyn500



Joined: 21 Oct 2012
Posts: 1745
Location: Nairn, Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I get more enjoyment out of it than a 2 week beach holiday which would probaly cost be a few thousand each year anyway"

Totally empathise with that but cuts little ice in my case with SWMBO!
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With gearbox delivered to the specialist who charged me 2 hours labour to dismantle it despite it taking him all afternoon ("we were so fascinated nothing else got done that day") I found a proper machine shop with a host of 80+ year old machines who will make 2 new gears for 3rd gear, a new pivot pin for the output shaft UJ, reface the gear selector forks and skim the transmission brake. To say this guy is with the programme is an understatement, although ages with me he is properly old fashioned in his engineering work ethic and I'm delighted to have found him.

For those interested ... http://www.forrestprecisioneng.com/

I had a guided tour of the place and it was fascinating. During the hour and a half Scott spent with me I mentioned the problem with the steering so he showed me how they can pretty much make anything that does not need cast. Suitably enthused I came home and remove the steering box and was delighted to find that not only does it have A&O stamped on it ( not that clearly but it is there) but the box is 100% tight, it was the pitman arm which was very loose.

I am pretty sure that the arm is not original to the box and someone had left out the woodruff key AND used a clamping bolt that was only 2/3 the right diameter. As a result there was almost 1/4 turn play at the steering wheel. This led to a horrible driving experience and on roads with varying camber and unnerving rolling motion almost like the car was swimming! A new key and a correctly sized pin will sort this, and cheaply.

So, by Xmas, I will have a fully rebuilt gearbox, oil tight(ish) with all new bearings and a sorted steering box all ready to paint and fit as appropriate. I'll also get around to cleaning the chassis subframe and repainting in black and possibly make new brake rods and finally get all the remaining orange removed.

With the gearbox and steering costing about 2/3 what I had budgeted I can now also afford to get new rear spring leafs made and fitted which will relive the bottoming out issue.

Next year is looking to be a fantastic year for driving with a properly sorted engine, quiet gearbox and precise steering making for a nice driving experience.

I feel rather satisfied. Photos to follow.
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kevin2306



Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1359
Location: nr Llangollen, north wales

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All sounding very positive!
after all the work you have carried out you deserve a bit of luck like this..

Kev Very Happy
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colwyn500



Joined: 21 Oct 2012
Posts: 1745
Location: Nairn, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great news and I particularly like your argument to justify spending on the springs. I will let you do the legwork and hope that you can enlighten us on a Scottish manufacturer for springs. If I don't replace the back ones on my Austin soon I fear they will snap.
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

colwyn500 wrote:
Great news and I particularly like your argument to justify spending on the springs. I will let you do the legwork and hope that you can enlighten us on a Scottish manufacturer for springs. If I don't replace the back ones on my Austin soon I fear they will snap.


I think I gave the wrong impression there. I don't need new springs entirely, I just need to add a leaf to the rear to firm it up.

I'll still need to find a local manufacturer of course. Maybe I'll do that instead of doing any productive work Embarassed Laughing
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been given some key steel and a new bolt and now all I need to do is spend a few hours fettling to get the steering slop sorted. All very good fun.

Some gearbox photos



the front of the box


and the rear



onto which the brake drum/output UJ assembly fits

Note: the toothed wheel is the sprag brake. A peg engages with this to prevent roll back on hill starts!

The pegs holding the brake shoes are rather worn - and being replaced


3rd gears ... rather worn on the ends but is the wear on the meshing face which made the noise


The selector forks are also worn and will be refaced


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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and 2015 brings a pile of repaired and remade parts ....

Here's where I am (photos to follow)

Gearbox dismantled
- new gears for 3rd & 3rd/4th
- gear selector forks refaced
- transmission brake drum skimmed
- new bearings and seals
- brake shoes re-drilled to square them up and new mounting pins made to suit
- propshaft and slip joint into gearbox skimmed and refaced to remove as much slop as possible

Steering column and box
- paint stripped to find A&O markings and original green paint
- new key steel to properly fit pitman arm which removed all the extra play in steering (now 2.5" rather than 12")
- steering box and control arms painted in green to match rest of car
-new mounting bolts made so column is now solidly mounted.

Steering mounted ignition and throttle controls
- tubes removed, straightened and trued
- refitted ready for complete reassembly

Next I will be getting the gearbox reassembled and then I'll refit it which will allow me to see how much material I can have put onto the transmission brake shoes as well as redesign the linkage system so there is no 'stretch' in any of the joints.

In the meantime I've, hopefully, sorted the leaking fuel tap with a bit of polishing of the mating surface and a few other bits and bobs.
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardD wrote:

In the meantime I've, hopefully, sorted the leaking fuel tap with a bit of polishing of the mating surface and a few other bits and bobs.


So I go to speak to the place I got the fuel tap from and they tell me the problem is the amount of ethanol in petrol causing degradation in the brass tap and most taps now only last a year or 2 at most Shocked

It seems I've been very lucky that the float bowl is not susceptible to ethanol rot and that I've emptied it before laying it up for more than a few weeks.

More research finds a range of additives including Millers EPS which is tested and approved by The Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs. This is not a cheap fix, at almost 13p per litre of fuel treated but when compared to the cost of replacing the carb or parts or having irreplaceable parts made it is cheap.
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colwyn500



Joined: 21 Oct 2012
Posts: 1745
Location: Nairn, Scotland

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard, I was a bit sceptical that alcohol can damage brass, but having looked into it I find that corrosion is actually caused by the impurities in the fuel which are very difficult to remove during production. These include chlorides and of course. water; water is further absorbed by the alcohol as the fuel ages.

As a side issue, alcohol fuel contains less energy than petrol, so as consumers I believe we are being short changed.

My old Austin, which used to start in any weather or temperature, is nowadays disinclined to do so when temperatures are low. Alcohol effectively suppresses the volatility of the fuel and this is confirmed by the fact that I discovered that a quick run over the manifold with a blowtorch has it starting first time.

Good luck with the (presumably) new tap.

PS. Now reading that modern additives to fuel have increased volatility....puzzled .


Last edited by colwyn500 on Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:20 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 6286
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Richard. As you know I am fairly new to this forum - just 1 month - so I have been reading over past threads to familiarise myself with various projects. I have been more than a little impressed by your tenacity and determination to not let this build defeat you.

I have always hoped that one day I might be able to afford a veteran car for the rather narrow ambition of completing the London to Brighton run. Whilst I realise that such a car would need to be pre 1905, your experiences are I feel a good insight into what I would be taking on.

Congratulations for bringing such a wonderful old car back to good health.
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Photo time

Old v New : 3rd/4th gear






The fixed part of 3rd gear - note the meshing nose of the new one has been rounded before case hardening (they did both sides by mistake!)



Spot the wear pattern!


Both of the old v new



re-faced selector forks


New transmission brake drum mounting pin



Skimmed drum


Here you can see how material had to be removed to try to even it up

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