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1909 Alldays and Onions 2 seat Runabout
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Peter_L



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2680
Location: New Brunswick. Canada.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello. You may remember from my posts that I read and follow all postings about your great vehicle. Question ?, did you balance the fan before fitting it back ?
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've not refitted yet, and no I've not tried balancing it.

It's a very odd shape (it has an eccentric mounting to tension the belt) so I'm not sure how. It's something I need to figure out soon!
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

updates from last October

Well, that's the Veteran Car season all but over and the last few weeks have been rather eventful. The last event of the year is the Scottish Section main event, this year it was 5 days of driving around the Moray area based in Elgin.

To get the car ready I only had to refit the repaired fan and go for a test drive but as soon as I started the engine the fan blades came flying off immediately and nearly took my head off. BUGGER. Cue much panic and thoughts of cancellation until the idea of making a frame for a modern electric fan borrowed from a friend. 4 hours of fabrication and a battery stolen from my 90 and it was working well enough to risk taking it.

So off we went, arriving in Elgin a couple of days early to have some chill time before the geriatrics arrived (average age of owner must be at least 75) and a wee drive to Lossiemouth, Duffus Castle and area on Saturday and Sunday proved the fan was working well and the battery should last each day's drive.

Monday was a 75 mile run along the coast in rather damp weather, Tuesday 65 miles in rain but Wednesday, being a short day was only 25 miles or so with a Distillery tour in the middle. We were tired after 2 long days so we took the direct route back to base ready for a few hours chilling in the pool/jacuzzi/sauna but when we crested the hill into Elgin disaster struck - sudden lack of drive!

It was very odd, driving beautifully, quietly and with zero fuss but after a wee roundabout put my foot on the gas and the engine note rose but no drive! I changed gear - nothing, I tried the foot (transmission) brake - nothing, I tried the hand brake (rear axle) and thankfully we slowed. I knew the rear axle was ready for an overhaul, but what could have gone wrong? I let the car coast into a garage forecourt and hopped out to look underneath but I couldn't see anything wrong so I asked Jacquie to get into the driving seat, put it into 1st gear and try moving the car with the admonishment "don't run me over". Her response was "which is the clutch? Which is 1st gear?"

I was at a loss, was it the clutch, the newly rebuilt gearbox? Sure not the diff which would cost thousands to repair? Looking underneath as the clutch was slowly engaged the engine was fine, the clutch was fine. The gearbox made gearbox noises and the propshaft was turning perfectly but STILL no drive. Scrub that, the car seemed to want to take up drive but wouldn't actually move. Hmmmmm. There were no grinding noises, no clunking, just no forward motion.

Nothing for it but to get a lift back to the hotel, collect the trailer and retire the car from the event and find a couple of passenger seats. As I pushed the Alldays to the side I noticed that the rear right wheel looked to be at a slightly odd angle and on closer inspection I found this



The hub had split! The welds holding the flange that the wheel bolts to had broken and the wheel was all but ready to fall off, easy to repair but unimaginable horror if the wheel had come off and rolled down the long steep hill into Elgin!!

Trailer collected, car loaded and taken back to the hotel where I eventually got the name of a local garage who could help. They pointed me to Gibby's Motor Weld-In so off I went there and Gibby did the business for me in 20 minutes including checking the other side Cool

Panic over, car unloaded and test driven and we were ready for the 90 miles of sunny coastal driving on Thursday followed by a final 75 mile day on Friday all completed with much smiling, fantastic views, waves and general enjoyment. Over 350 miles completed, about half my annual mileage with only a wash and polish needed before being put away for the winter and some servicing and overhauling.

The fan:
The welds that had been done had zero penetration and when I dressed the welds back I had all but removed them. Being safety critical, a repair is not possible so off to Forrest Precision again for a new one to be CNCd out of billet ally. I'm still waiting for the estimate but I'm not expecting change from £750 Shocked
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

from January

Winter is well upon us but as the afternoons get lighter I'm motivated to pick up all those jobs I've been ignoring.

First, the fan. It will be ready at the end of January and should be a 30 minute fit.

Second, the bosch DU4b magneto I found will be refurbished by the end of Feb so that will be fitted so ending my reliance on carrying fully charged batteries for smooth running. This will give me more storage under the seat for essential such as GPS, phone cables and sandwiches.

The list of jobs:
- remove the valve caps and spark plugs and refit using hylomar to give a hopefully gas tight seal and maximise compression.
- check all oils and greases
- remove rear hubs and make new 'chucks' with fresh keysteel to solidly fix hubs to driveshafts. The slot in the shaft has worn but the reciprocal slot in the hub is new (1980s) and the 2 are not the same. This is where some of the slop is take up is coming from. New keysteel, properly fitted, will reduce future damage/wear.

The latest A&O related project is to create a Register of Alldays Vehicles. Starting with the cars, I've been given 2 lists, both 15+ years out of date, and I've been busy researching and contacting people and Clubs all over the world and making decent headway. It seems there are only ~25 cars left and mine, a 12/14 is one of only 4 of the model and one of 2 of later version of the model (there was a complete redesign in 1912 for 1913).

No new photos but I will start posting pics of other A&O cars as they come in from owners.
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and now we're up to date ...

I've been pottering and fettling for a few weeks now and despite the new fan being a bit of a nightmare for the guys building it (they keep on cocking up) it will be a work of art when finished.

Tonight I took out the valve caps and spark plugs ready to refit with hylomar gasket sealant and noticed the plugs were white. This,of course, means it is running rather lean across all 4 cylinders, all being the same colour so I decided to richen the mixture up a shade. Off with the float bowl, out with the jets and aft checking my notes and the current settings, I drilled out the jets by an extra 0.05mm to main 0.65mm and comp 1mm.

The valve caps were slathered in goo and refitted, the spark plugs lightly smeared and bolted in and left for an hour to set. On turning the engine over I could feel 4 distinct compressions, all much more even and stronger than normal ( during winter lay up I turn it over every few weeks to keep the internals oiled). I felt a test fire was in order.

2 litres of unleaded, battery connected, spark retarded and throttle part opened and I was ready to go. This is always a nervous time and I was ready for a couple of hours of fannying around to get it to fire and run but with barely a flick of the handle it fired and ran perfectly. Ignition slowly advanced and throttle closed to suit and soon it was ticking over nice and slow with a nice fat sound without any tell tale ticking or hissing. The hylomar had blown in a few places but so much was in the threads it had sealed perfectly.

A couple of stops and restarts and I was convinced it's now ready to run once I get the fan fitted. Once the new magneto is ready I can fit it knowing that the car runs perfectly so finding the settings should be relatively straightforward.

Not started the hub keysteels yet nor remembered to get the cover sorted with new zips. Always a few jobs to do Wink
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winnet wrote:
Makes you wonder how they managed to make the fans in the old days then if the new place is struggling. Or is it a case of rediscovering old technologies and techniques?

G.


The original was cast aluminium but the new one is cnc'd from billet ally. The first one was half done when they operator lost concentration and allowed the machine head to clip it and the second one was made with the holes for the bearings being too tight and now they can't remove them and they're knackered so they have to make a 3rd one!

I have limited sympathy - they didn't follow my instructions that it had to be able to be assembled and adjusted without heavy tools. They've had it for almost 6 months as well!



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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 22429
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trials and tribulations eh!! You were very lucky with the fan blades, I had a similar moment in Dec 2014 with my '24 Dodge. The blades impaled themselves into the radiator core in my case. That could have ended a lot worse.

RJ
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Peter_L



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2680
Location: New Brunswick. Canada.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have one of the "cocked up" one's. Make a great table lamp base and conversation piece.

I have read all your posts since day 1. Apart from the expense of the whole project, I am sure there are a few who would have thrown in the towel many "fixes" ago.

Could we have some "glam shots" when you are out and about ?

Regards
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mikeC



Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Posts: 1771
Location: Market Warsop, Nottinghamshire

PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rdover wrote:


... The latest A&O related project is to create a Register of Alldays Vehicles. Starting with the cars, I've been given 2 lists, both 15+ years out of date, and I've been busy researching and contacting people and Clubs all over the world and making decent headway. It seems there are only ~25 cars left and mine, a 12/14 is one of only 4 of the model and one of 2 of later version of the model (there was a complete redesign in 1912 for 1913).

No new photos but I will start posting pics of other A&O cars as they come in from owners.


I think I may have posted these before, but here are my grandparents with my mother aboard their Alldays & Onions motorcycle. My mother was born in January 1914, so I would guess these pics date from 1916:



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Penman



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4751
Location: Swindon, Wilts.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
I would place your mother as older than 2yrs in those pics.
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kevin2306



Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1359
Location: nr Llangollen, north wales

PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fantastic problem solving and constant proving of a lovely survivor

Kev
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A wee update for the start of the driving season ...

A couple of short test runs with the new fan fitted and it is working perfectly. In fact, with nice new bearings and almost perfectly balanced it clearly is allowing the engine to run just a little more smoothly.

Other fettles include using hylomar blue to fully seal up the valve caps and the spark plugs and now the engine runs so much better than it did it is brilliant. The old ticking sounds have all but disappeared and the engine sounds much more solid and starts first swing of the handle. Even under serious pressure (e.g. turning up a steep incline at low revs) the engine just pulls cleanly and smoothly, and as long as I fully close the priming pots, I'm getting full compression and no odd noises. I took the chance of richening the mixture up a touch after seeing how white the plugs were and that seems to help with starting and running as well. We can run at a steady 30mph and still get ~15mpg and less gear changing.

Sunday last, we went to Largs for lunch and it was a 33 mile route there and about 30 back taking roughly 90 minutes each way. In total we used around 20 litres of fuel and the most noticeable thing was just how easy the drive was. One problem that reared it's head was weak running on the way home which came down to the ignition battery running down faster than expected. As you may recall I carry 2 Lucas 22Ah 12v AGM golf caddy batteries (one to use, one for spare) to run the magneto/coil conversion which I fitted about 5 years ago. It has been perfect but over last year's events I started to notice that the engine was running a bit 'softer' in the afternoons resulting in having to sit in 2nd or 3rd on the hills more than in the morning. The difference now is very clear; with a fresh battery I tend to retard the ignition on the flat to help control speed but after only 30 miles I'm having to work the engine much harder. The answer is, obviously, new batteries and/or bigger batteries until the restored magneto is finished and fitted.

Without a charging system, I'm running a total loss ignition which means I need a battery which can provide a long slow discharge without being damaged, i.e. deep cycle, leisure or mobility/golf caddy battery. I opted for 2Ah Lucas batteries because they fit under the driver's seat and can be easily carried into a hotel room to be recharged. Now the car runs so much better and I'm driving longer distances I should either be swapping batteries at lunch time, carrying more or creating a battery bank to give me longer running at full power or all 3!

How long can I run the ignition before the battery gets too low to be effective? Time for some science!

A 22Ah battery is not able to give 22 hours of 1A current draw, at best you'd expect to be able to discharge it to 75% without damage. This means I can plan on 5.5Ah of usable power from each battery. How long I can drive for will then depend on the current the ignition draws and amazingly enough I have never got around to measuring it. Looking on t'net I can see answers to the question "how much current does a car ignition draw?" ranging from 0.5A to 5.5A so last night I took a fully charged battery my Mastech multimeter and set out to measure it.

Meter linked in series on the +ve of the battery and the ignition off saw 0.00A (as you'd expect give there's nothing else in the circuit) but as I switched it on the reading leapt to 4.4A then reducing to ~3.7A. I was not too surprised and knew it draws less when running so got her started up. At that point the current draw dropped to 1.75A and stayed there no matter what I did with the advance/retard or the throttle. Good news! This meant I had been drawing much less than I had expected. When I stopped the engine the draw dropped to 0.00A because the points were open - on turning the engine over a touch the draw went back up to 3.75A.

So, how much running time had I actually been getting? Around 3 hours rather than the 7 I had planned for originally and as a result of not swapping halfway through each day I have worn out these batteries in far fewer cycles than advertised (when not being used they sit on a CTEK charger). Now I can drive up to 100 miles in a day (the car is still fresh but I take 2 days to recover) which would take up to 6 hours I would need 10.5Ah of usage and therefore a battery with at least 42Ah capacity (1.75A x 6h/25%) and preferably 52.5Ah (1.75A x 6h/20%).

I have 3 choices of how to achieve this given that I need to be able to easily remove the batteries to take into a hotel room to recharge:
1. buy 2 or 3 new Lucas 22Ah batteries and swap them over every 2 or 3 hours
2. buy 2 new Lucas 22Ah batteries and run them as a single bank (both to use and charge) with an older one as a spare.
3. buy a much larger version of the same battery and mount it under the rear seat and put up with humping it in and out (and keep a wee one as a spare).

things to bear in mind
1. the 22Ah batteries are £33 each and the bigger ones are, oddly proportionately more expensive
2. only the 22Ah can slide into the driver's seat box
3. this is only to last me over the summer when I'll have the magneto back and fitted
4. I could buy a similar sized Oddysy battery for £120 and run it down to nothing each time

..... or one of you guys has a better idea that doesn't involve a complicated charging system ....
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Rdover



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 413

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peterwpg wrote:
Do you have one of the "cocked up" one's. Make a great table lamp base and conversation piece.

I have read all your posts since day 1. Apart from the expense of the whole project, I am sure there are a few who would have thrown in the towel many "fixes" ago.

Could we have some "glam shots" when you are out and about ?

Regards


The cocked up ones have been recycled unfortunately.

The expense is one thing but I am lucky enough to be able to afford it (at the expense of many other things) and now it is costing more time than money I am being repaid in top quality leisure time and satisfaction. Over the period of my custodianship I am highly likely to recover the outlay and perhaps even make a little, excluding my time and effort, so the money decreasingly comes into it.

As for throwing in the towel, I am well practiced at the art of attempting to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!

I should take more photos .....
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