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Charge in a 6v system
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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:16 pm    Post subject: Charge in a 6v system Reply with quote

Evening all

With the engine running, what voltage should I see across the (6v) battery terminals at a) normal idle and b) fast idle?

I had the Z running this evening, at idle I was seeing about 5.75v, and at fast idle just under 6, so I'm guessing the latter figure should be a bit higher? I can understand the normal idle figure being a bit below 6. I've not checked the points in the regulator, or bushes in dynamo as yet, just curious about what figures I should see when everything is tickity-boo

cheers, R
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick, look for an idle voltage of 6.0V, and a full charge voltage of 6.3V across the battery...that what I used to do anyway

Try the F-D trick that I mentioned in another post to check if its your dynamo or regulator that is at fault.

Didnt UK do a good article on setting regulators a while ago?
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Rick
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok thanks that'll give me some numbers to work towards, I assume this is correct for a car still fitted with a measly dynamo?

R
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick, I can try to explain how I would have solved this problem on one of my vehicles. It works for me, even if its not neccessarily the correct way to do things.
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Rick
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

by all means, more info the merrier!

R
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I've always done it is like this.

1)With everything switched off, check the voltage over the battery terminals.

2) Bridge F and D on the regulator with a jumper wire. Best to use small crocodile clips.

3) Start the engine, and with it ticking over, measure the battery voltage again. If its the same, you have a faulty dynamo. It should be higher, around 6volts.

4) Rev the engine, and check again. The voltage should rise to around 6.3 volts.

5) Remove the jumper.

6) If the voltage is under the values in 3) and 4), follow UK's advice in adjusting...

It may not be the correct way, but its always worked for me...
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Rick
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks UJ, I'll print that off and give that a try when I look at the charging again. I'm wondering if it'll be quicker getting the Z rather than the A40 p/up on the road, so I might do this sooner rather than later Smile

ta, R
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick, where is UK's regulator adjustment article?
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Rick
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

when I get a tick I'll have a search around for it

RJ
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ukdave2002



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uncle Joe wrote:
Rick, where is UK's regulator adjustment article?


I can’t remember if I wrote one !! Confused

Anyway, the thing is to do tests in a logical series!, the regulators don’t go out of adjustment very often themselves. You will need 2 meters.

A couple of things to check first;
1) if the control box earth is poor, really odd things occur! Rolling Eyes

2) The contacts in the control box do oxidise with lack of use, the regulator contacts especially, these can be cleaned with 100 grade wet & dry, the Cut out contacts are silver so need a more gentle cleaning . I have had brand new out of the box (NOS) control units that have not worked because of oxidised contacts.

The following is the sequence of tests;

Step 1 is the battery good?

Step 2 Visible checks
check the belt tightness and electrical connections.

Step 3 Dynamo Armature

Take the main dynamo regulator lead off, run the engine to about 1500, and measure the voltage from the “D” lead to earth it should be between 1.5 to 3V. If the reading is less than 1.5v the dynamo armature is faulty.

Step 4 Dynamo Field Coils

Leave the “D” lead disconnected and also disconnect the field lead (should be the “F” terminal on the regulator) connect an ammeter between to the “F” & “D” leads and a voltmeter from the “D” lead to earth, increase the engine speed until the voltmeter reads about 6V the field current should be now be about 2.5amps give or take an amp.

If these test are good, the dynamo looks ok, you can look at the control box.

Step 5 Zero Load test

Put the “F” & “D” cables back, remove the cables from the A & A1 posts and join them together, connect a voltmeter from “D” to earth, when the engine is revving at about 3000 rpm the voltage should be between 8 and 8.4 volts (this does vary with temperature, I’ll have to dig the info out, I think 8-8.4 is at 20 degrees), if it needs adjusting turn the voltage adjusting screw clockwise to raise the voltage, and anticlockwise to lower it. Once this is done raise the revs to about 4500, the voltage should now read about 9v. (I’m assuming you still have 6v electrics).

Step 6 Cut in voltage adjustment

The control box switches the dynamo “in” but only when it is generating enough voltage to charge the battery.

Put the “A” & “A1” wires back disconnect the “D” wire and connect an ammeter from the “D” wire to the “D” post on the control box (this completes the circuit but allows you to measure the current flowing through the armature). Connect a voltmeter between the D post and earth. Slowly increase the engine speed, watch the voltmeter (a moving coil one is better than a digital one for this) The cut in contacts should close when the generator has reached between 6.3 & 6.7 volts when it does you will see the voltmeter needle flick and the ammeter will start to show a charge of between 3-5 amps. If this is wrong you need to adjust the cut in coil screw, again its CW to increase and ACW to decrease the cut in voltage.

Step 7 Cut out voltage adjustments

Put the “D” cable back and disconnect the “A” cable from the control box, connect a voltmeter between the “A” post and earth. Run the engine up to about 3000 RPM, slowly decrease the speed, the voltage will drop and then suddenly fall away to zero, this should occur at between 4.8 to 5.5 volts.

I have got good Control box's and dynamos if you want to do a substiute test, or I could stick your regulator on the Series E and set it up.

Dave
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Uncle Joe
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UK: I'm glad you saw this topic...feel free to correct anything I said if its incorrect.

Have you by any chance seen the 103E brain pick topic? Theres a photo of a regulator on there, which prompted a query from me...I suspect that you will know what I am thinking, again, am I correct?
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1stpop



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am having real problems with my control box and am thinking of replacing it.... but... have noticed that even though my wiring diagram says there should be one, there is no wire coming form the A1 post. The ammeter always reads 0 no matter what and I'm thinking that its probably all wired up wrong... at the moments the car is just running off the battery!!!
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Rick
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While running the Z today, the ammeter showed a constant discharge regardless of engines revs. I cleaned the points in the regulator (RF95/3 6v) and the gauge now shows a small initial charge before dropping back. Rev the engine and the needle climbs into the +ve, and slips back quite quickly to -ve again, so I think its an improvement but more time needed on this one I think!!!

Rick
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Phil - Nottingham



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A1 merely is battery fed via Ammeter "Accesories" unfused (as opposed to A2 fused and A3/A4 simliar for ignition unfused/fused controlled) Other regulators eg Rf91 RB 106 have similar terminals but RB310/340

An A termimal goes to the Ammeter (oteh otehr ammeter terminal to teh battery or stater solenoid/swich and is not equivalent to the terminal A1 etc as it goes to a tap on the voltage regulator coil so as to regulate charge with loads on.

Whilst I am not familar with your car and which regualtor it should have and what it's wiring circuit is - it should have standard battery & charge circuit wiring to match the regulator/dynamo set-up whatever is on your car. These are standard for all cars even most foriegners

It looks like some PO has messed it up.

You can update to the newer temperature contolled RB106 regulators which are cheap and plentiful especially with 6v. These do not have the fuses (the "F" in RF91 and RF95) howver so seperate arrangements are needed. You need to start from basics and trace (and rewire if necessary) all wires so thye can be checked if in correct place. Its not complicated really onec you know waht regulator you have got (or should have!)

They all apart from the current/voltage RB310/340 work on the same principle
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ukdave2002



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Rick

The earlier Z vans were fitted with CFR2 cut out & the Lucas C35MV 3 brush Dynamo, the later vans (post 51) had the RF91compensated control box (which can be directly replaced by the RF95 or as Phil says even one of the later units) and have the Lucas C45YV Dynamo.

If you have the earlier system you will have something like "summer half charge, winter full charge" positions on the ignition switch?

Conversion from the earlier system to the later one is quite straight forward, the cutout is replace by the control box (RF91/95), the dynamo changed from the 3 brush to a 2 brush, a small amount of rewiring which results in the "summer/Winter" switch becoming redundant as the Dynamo field regulation is now done automatically by the control box.

Cheers Dave
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