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Modernising a Morris side valve engine?
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llllmikellll



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 48
Location: Heatherton, SE of Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:02 pm    Post subject: Modernising a Morris side valve engine? Reply with quote

Hi guys.

I want to overhaul my Morris 1500 side valve engine, and in the process make it run on modern fuel as normal.

Has anyone got experience or info on doing it?

Cheers,
Mike
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of words were writ about unleaded when 4 star disappeared. This led to a boom for engineering shops fitting hardened valve seats and guides etc, however, many people (myself included) just transferred to unleaded without any modification to my engine. My thoughts (and those of many others) being that if seat recession does take place I haven't done anything to upset the fitting of new seats as and when problems arise.

All you need to do is check your valve clearance periodically, but I certainly haven't seen any recession in several years of running and my car, like yours, having a lowish compression ratio, has no sign of pinking due to the lower octane ratings of modern fuels.

My advice would be to run your car as is.

HTH

Peter.
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pigtin



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 1879
Location: Herne Bay

PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good advice from PS Mike. I have been using unleaded for years in my Austin 10/4, Special, and more recently my Sprite... not a sign of valve recession.
I wouldn't go as far as to say we're being conned into fitting hardened seats, but the vehicles really needing them seem to be few and far between. Even 'indisputable' engineering facts (like statistics it seems,) can be made to mean whatever they want them to.

Don.
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Phil - Nottingham



Joined: 01 Jan 2008
Posts: 1252
Location: Nottingham

PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most classic car owners do neither mileage nor stress their engines in any way so as to cause VSR. Additives are probably a waste of money in their case so may as well put it towards a conversion in the unlikely event it will be needed.

VSR only happens to any great extent at over 3000 rpm an donly then if this speed is held continuosly so it should be easy to check whether your car is likely to suffer this if driven continuosly at a speed where revs will be at more than 3000 eg Motorway driving. So do not worry and enjoY Rolling Eyes
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4100
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Morris 8 side valve runs quite happily on unleaded, did about 5000 miles and didn't have to touch the valves, am about to pull the engine to bits (it needs a re bore) so will be able to look at the valves and seats.

I believe (stand to be corrected here) that lead in petrol was not the norm when many of these engines were designed? and had to run on fuel of dubious quality when new, is this correct?

Dave
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think tetra ethyl lead first became available in fuels in the late 1920s but during WWII leaded fuels gave way to "pool" petrol that had little or no TEL and that remained for some time after the war too. As we move through the 1950s car manufacturers are striving for higher power outputs and efficiencies by increasing compression ratios and this is made possible by 4 and 5 star type fuels.

The early history of TEL production is fascinating and scarey in the extreme.

Take a look at Troubles with Tetraethyl Lead:

http://www.cs.radford.edu/~wkovarik/papers/kettering2.html#troubles

Peter
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llllmikellll



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 48
Location: Heatherton, SE of Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive been running that engine for a couple of years now, standard fuel and no additive. Recently had the head off and checked the valve seats. All is looking good, but its only done about 1600 miles. Some of the seats have inserts due to water corrosion pitting. It had been sitting out in the open for a long time. All is coated with a nice thin layer of black carbon. I do tend to drive it conservatively so looks like it will have a long life.

Mike
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Roger-hatchy



Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 2135
Location: Tiptree, Essex

PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did start using lead replacement when I rebuilt the DLM in 2009/10
It has a tuned Ford side-valve e93a and dose not have a sedate life.

I was told by my MOT man, an old ex racer of tuned specials and motorbikes that the additives were a waste of time as most valve seats will be case hardened by now., he's now in his late 70's and still doing MOT's at his garage.


I stopped using the additive and have had to change the head gasket a couple of times and after about 6,000 miles no sign of a problem,
if I wish to drive it like I do I have to live with it blowing gaskets, and at £15 and half hour job it's no problem. (and I carry the tools and a gasket to do it at the roadside, just make sure I can get water) anyway the old chap said it was common for tuned e93a to blow a gasket.
or at least with the compression I'm running
The only concession is I use super unleaded (Vpower) but that's to do with ethanol, I find I get better MPG with the super.
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ka



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 600
Location: Orkney.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:23 am    Post subject: Unleaded Fuel Reply with quote

I agree with all the above, my E93 has been belted around most of the race circuits in the UK and some in Europe, (the banking at Monthlerry is terrific) been driven around France in temperatures where I was concerned about the Gearbox temperature (Mr Morgan did not waste money where he could avoid it, ie, worm/wheel setup). Been driven to Skye then the length of the Outer Hebrides, and now around North Scotland, all with no issues.
I would be More concerned with the effects of the Ethanol in fuel, not the lack of TEL!
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welshrover



Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 326

PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

never had any engine of mine converted .I use my imp and wife uses her minx everyday (60 miles plus).and every other car weve owned, all classics. were driven daily for 25 years and have never had a problem due to unleaded fuels .as for hardened valve seats and alike .I wouldn't waste my money .these things were built to put up with any crap fuel that was available .now if these modern designed engines were built back then id worry, cause theres no way they will stand up to what these old cast iron lumps will put up with . Cool weve just done 500 miles this week on holiday in the minx up hill and down dale in Shropshire without missing a beat in the hot weather .we counted 5 modern cars with overheating problems .the faces of one car an audi I think it was, was a picture as we drove passed with 5 adults in the minx. Laughing I stopped to see if they needed anything and was greeted by, bloody hell they don't make cars like them any more .this pile of junk has been nowt but trouble . made my day I can tell you ... Cool
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ka



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 600
Location: Orkney.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:52 am    Post subject: Unleaded Fuel Reply with quote

So I think the general feel is, don't bother with any head mods, but do keep an eye on fuel lines, floats and anything the ethanol will attack!
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llllmikellll



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 48
Location: Heatherton, SE of Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:34 pm    Post subject: Compression and economy Reply with quote

re Roger-hatchy

Thats interesting. How did you raise the compression. Im not familiar with the Ford SV.

Using the Super, is it more economical on a cost per mile basis?

Mike
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llllmikellll



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 48
Location: Heatherton, SE of Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:41 pm    Post subject: attack of the Ethanol Reply with quote

re ka

I take it you mean the non-metallic components?

On mine everything is either copper, brass or mounded mud, but for a very short length of fuel hose.

Mike
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ka



Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 600
Location: Orkney.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:55 pm    Post subject: Unleaded/Super Reply with quote

The ethanol in unleaded will attack anything that is not metal based, or specifically made for unleaded use, including tank liner!
I would imagine better economy using super, as unleaded containing up to 5% ethanol does not burn as effectively in older engines, as it burns at a different temperature to old 'leaded'
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Roger-hatchy



Joined: 07 Dec 2007
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Location: Tiptree, Essex

PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Compression and economy Reply with quote

llllmikellll wrote:
re Roger-hatchy

Thats interesting. How did you raise the compression. Im not familiar with the Ford SV.

Using the Super, is it more economical on a cost per mile basis?

Mike




It was not planned, I had to have the head skimmed because of very fine pitting, If I remember right he had to remove 25 thou to get rid of the worst of the pitting.

As to the Super I get about 3-5 miles per gallon better, I get 42 mpg even with hard driving, might get more mpg if I drove with economy in mind,

Mind you the speedometer is way way out, I fitted a cycle computer for accuracy and at 60 mph on the computer the car speedo bounces between 35 and 45 mph, but never the same two days running.
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