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Here I go again ..... to 12V or not 12V
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Jim Walker



Joined: 01 Oct 2008
Posts: 124
Location: Chesterfield, Derbys.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want to enter the 6v or 12v argument. Most viewpoints have been aired. However if lighting is the main consideration a visit to Paul Goff's website might be enlightening.

Although aimed at motorcycles he has a vast range of bulb and diode (LED) updates which would also suit many cars. Halogen headlamp bulbs are available in 6 volt form, which give better lights. If diode lamps are used in side and tail lamps etc. even more power is available for headlamps.

I have a 6 volt Triumph motorbike and I found that using 6 volt diodes instead of bulbs allowed me to uprate my headlamp by 10 Watts AND convert to Halogen without charging problems. Diode units are available for +ve or -ve earth The wrong ones won't work.

"Goffies" service is first class.

Look him up at :- www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/

Jim.
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4100
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats a good link Jim , thanks.
I have been concidering LED lamps in the rear clusters of my Stag, although the original lamps are all working on, folk don't seem to notice them as easily as a modern car, especially the indicators, as I use it on motorways this is quite important !
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Greeney in France



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 1173
Location: Limousin area of France

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been reading a really interesting article about 6V v 12V
It states that there is no reason why a 6V system should be inferior but entails a fair bit of work on a regular basis, including cleaning and upgrading earth wires, which are the prime reason for an inferior system
NOW I AM CONFUSED Rolling Eyes
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Phil - Nottingham



Joined: 01 Jan 2008
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Location: Nottingham

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is the reason - it requires heavier cables and switches and scrupulously clean connections everywhere particularly earths which are often in exposed wet places. This is because volt drop is more crucial.

Switch terminals inside become tarnished/burnt so if better and/or modern verions cannot be had relays can help a lot.

I was quite happy with 6v systems on on Auto Union (DKW) 1000s's and my late fathers DKW F12 but that was 30-40 years ago Rolling Eyes
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
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Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with Phil

Greeney in layman terms the effect of a poor connection in a 6v system will be twice as bad as if it was 12v. Consider the fact that most 6v vehicles must be 50 years old now, did not have the best protection on electrical connectors, and lets face it how often do we check and clean the connections up ! Embarassed older insulation will deteriate with time which will cause problems. Most challenges that folk have with 6v is down to poor maintenance.

There is a also realistic limitation on electrical load due to the relatively small output that can be achieved within the physical & practcal size of a 6 v dynamo or alternator. (This is why vehicle manufactures are currently considering a move to 36v as a standard in cars as we have really hit the limit of a 12v) , and also why I maintain that if you need to run a vehicle at night regularly them a move from 6 to 12 v should be considered because of the much improved lighting options.

Do you have a vehicle that you are considering converting?

Cheers Dave
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Jim Walker



Joined: 01 Oct 2008
Posts: 124
Location: Chesterfield, Derbys.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voltage drop has been mentioned. One of the reasons why 6 volt systems often suffer excessive voltage drop is that the wires and switches must carry twice as much current for a given Wattage output. For anyone not into electrics that is like trying to force twice as much water down a hose pipe with half the pressure being available - voltage being the pressure.
I think many people forget this when adding wiring to a 6 volt system. The wiring needs to be AT LEAST twice as heavy as a 12 volt system for a similar circuit.
Lots of vehicles gave years of trouble free service on 6 volts, though admittedly the lamps tended to be more yellow, which was probably less important when you did not have to face todays traffic often with Xenon lights coming the other way. Remember the VW Beetle gained its early reputation when it was one of the few cars still on 6 volts.

Jim.
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Greeney in France



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
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Location: Limousin area of France

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UKDave, yes indeed I am in a dilemma as I have a Traction Avant with a 6V system and am really still unsure what to do.
I am however rewiring it with new thin sleeve cable, making my own loom, and am going to add relays and a fuse box but I am also starting to collect 12V bits just in case
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Phil - Nottingham



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should calculate the amperage required Amps = Watts divide by volts round up and double it and go up to next size cable. Fuse the same.
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Jim Walker



Joined: 01 Oct 2008
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Location: Chesterfield, Derbys.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil is right, though his explanation is more technical than mine, and I make no apologies for using an anology instead of calculations. However, if you use a fuse value calculated that way you may find fuses 'blow' because of voltage surge. Use a fuse of the next available greater capacity.
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Phil - Nottingham



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuse the same means double max load so also allows for volt surge - do not double again
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
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Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greeney in France wrote:
UKDave, yes indeed I am in a dilemma as I have a Traction Avant with a 6V system and am really still unsure what to do.
I am however rewiring it with new thin sleeve cable, making my own loom, and am going to add relays and a fuse box but I am also starting to collect 12V bits just in case


Hi Greeney,I have had a loom for the Morris 8 made up in thinwall cable but with a cloth covering so it looks original. I have also maintained the original thicknes which with thinwall means you have a much higher rate cable than the original spec.

If you are doing your own loom make sure you use the right cable tracer colours, it looks bad when you open a bonnet and they are all wrong, + a pain when you are trying to trace faults.

If you have not already done it making a nail board up from the old loom will greatly assist getting the new loom right. Final tip is avoid the insulated crimps they look so wrong in an old car imho (bright blue, red and yellow!), if you do use them make sure you use the right size for the gauge of wire, and remember to crimp both the insulation and the wire, avoid the non ratchet crimper's.

Dave
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Greeney in France



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 1173
Location: Limousin area of France

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the tips, I havent started it yet I will probably do some of the small bits first and the main in the cold of winter where I can do it in the front room
Shocked
My loom is all black cable with coloured crimps but not bright colours but pastels and I have managed to get same in a rubber material that slips over crimp, I have the original cloth binding tape too but I only have normal crimp tool, couldnt find a ratchet type I will look further
I have gone for 32/02 44/03 84/03 cable in 50m rolls
I have made bits before and a 2cv one a few times but never one this size

I have already made a board up the full length of the loom
The only thing about fitting a fuse box is that it never had one so I will have to carefully think that one out Confused but its all in the game Rolling Eyes
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
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Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Greeney
If the loom used all black cable originally it must have had identification tags on the ends?
I have seen them before just a number, but am not familiar with Citroen. They are much more difficult to work with than the more common “tracer” colours. With tracer colours you know immediately if it a fused circuit, ignition circuit and what the cable is for. With tags you have to look the number up! Ok if you work on the same make of cars I suppose
If you are going to buy a ratchet crimper go for a non insulated one, it will look original then, and you can then use the insulated covers that you have.
You can get the identifier tags from RS Components.

Does it have fuses in the control box?

Cheers Dave
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Greeney in France



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
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Location: Limousin area of France

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Originally Citroen used the coloured crimp insulators about 10 different so it will look the same as the original
there is no fuses at all apart from one in the clockwork indicators
I have bought a non insulated ratchet crimp from ebay
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Phil - Nottingham



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use the non-insulated crimped bullets and Lucars as they are far more secure. The two separate tools needed are not cheap though.

I would include a Fuse box or Line fuses for safety sake. They can be fitted out of sight of picky persons if wished
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