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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1480
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter,

I'm coming in a bit late on the replies here. I'm sorry to hear of your problems especially after such a wait for this engine to come along. Re your bearing problems:- How do both cranks compare size-wise. If they are the same regrind size you've won a watch and can keep the bearings to match the block. I'm glad to see it's not getting you down. I would have been heartbroken.

Art
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Art,

At first I thought I had won the watch. The new crank is -40thou and when I looked at the old rear main shell it said on it -40 but when I measured the it, it turned out to be -25thou Shocked

When I looked harder at the shell it also had etched in hand writing -0.025.
The shells are remanufactured and the stamped sizes don't correspond with the actual sizes. Crying or Very sad

Nothing is ever simple with these cars. Rolling Eyes

Peter
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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1480
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter,

There's a guy on Ebay (item 320275890226) selling MK V mains in +20 & +40. He might be worth contacting to see if he has any pre-war types. He does say he has more bearings than listed. They aren't cheap at £230.

Art
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Art,

I hadn't noticed that guy. I suspect there isn't enough demand for the old flanged shells so I'll probably modify my block to accept the separate thrust washers.

Peter
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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1480
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter,

Would it not be simpler to move the steel rods over to the old engine? Or put the old engine together as-was and live with the alloy rods. I recall there was a difference in my alloy rods and the XJ steel rod bearings that I fitted to mine. The locating tabs were on different sides of the shell. Are the pre-war steel rod bearing the same as the alloys? Looking at your old engine I can see that you already have the cut-out in the web but is the locating tab cut-out there or is that the modification that you have to make? The one at the rear of the block looks accessible but what about the inside one?

Art
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good questions Art,

When I first examined the bearings in the new engine I only took off one big-end and one intermediate main and both looked good. I've now stripped both engines and I've discovered that in the new engine both the front and centre mains have suffered fatigue failures and a couple of big-end shells are showing initial signs of fatigue. I might still re-fit the big-ends but I will definitely not re-use the mains.

In my old engine I replaced the big-ends 10k miles ago and they are all good as new. The old engine mains are now 20k miles and they aren't bad either.

If I transfer the new crank into the old block then I need new mains and I
need to drill holes and fit pins to retain the thrust washers. As you suggest, this should be easy at the rear but difficult for the top front. Unfortunately I've also discovered that the spiggots on the new shells are offset slightly from the bearing centre whereas in the old block they lie symetrically so the two new shell halves would be displaced wrt each other unless I grind new spiggot grooves.

If I transfer the steel rods but use my old crank and bearings then I need to grind new spiggot grooves in the rods. (There are three spiggoting arrangements. Early type are almost central to the bolts. Later dural rods spiggot top left and steel rods spiggot top right.)

So far I've not found a source of later type B/E shells that don't require me to grind new grooves in the rods.

So either way I have to modify either block or rods. Right now I'm still checking bearing sources and the outcome of that will help me to decide what to do.

Another aspect that I discovered is that my old engine has a Mark V camshaft which has rather more conservative timing 10,50,50,10 as against the correct 16,56,56,16 fitted in the new engine. My old engine felt more torquey than the new one did but it also runs out of steam above about 3500 revs. I had hoped to transfer the cam from the new engine but it has far too much bearing wear which would need machining the shaft, new bearings and line boring so I think I'll just stick with my Mark V cam which has good bearings. Sad

Peter


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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon


Last edited by peter scott on Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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47p2



Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 2009
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing is ever simple Peter. I hope it all goes well and although it is giving you major headaches Shocked Crying or Very sad we are enjoying your updates Very Happy
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pigtin



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 1879
Location: Herne Bay

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a nightmare Peter. Still, having got so far you have to carry on to the bitter end. Spring is still a few months away and I'm sure you'll have it all sorted by then. Rest assured, there are lots of us cheering you on.
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks John,

Although I don't really like having the car in bits I do find the little challenges quite interesting and I'm also still learning things. Until I spotted the different lobe profiles I hadn't realised that there was a camshaft with different timing and it does help to explain why my car seems more powerful in normal driving than other 2½ litre cars but also appears more gutless at higher speeds.

I also couldn't quite understand why the new engine had such poor oil pressure but having measured its camshaft bearings I can now see a very significant reason in addition to the effect of the fatique failures in otherwise good looking mains.

Peter


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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon


Last edited by peter scott on Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1480
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter,

I don't think that grinding the rods is a good idea. As I said I have XJ rods so bearings for them are not a problem. However for the mains it wasn't so simple. At the time, 20 odd years ago that I did my engine the only bearing I could get were a mixture of TR2 and Lada which were a coincidental size but with the locating tags on the wrong side of the shell. The solution that Alan Gibbins of the Jaguar driver Club gave me was to get the locating tags on the bearings re-bent to suit the caps. That's the way the engine sits at the moment and I'm seriously considering the ones I told you about on Ebay. Anyone got a spare £230 pound s they could donate to a poor old pensioner? Laughing

Art
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting!

That's certainly a lower cost way to obtain rear shells (TR2) £23 for a pack of 3. Can't find much data on Ladas.

Thanks,

Peter
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1480
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter,

How about under Fiat. I'll have a look in my garage and see if the old box is there.

Art
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1480
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter,

The only bearings I can find quickly are all the same (Glacier M3196 +040") for Standard Vanguard. I seem to have cornered the market as there's 8 pairs there. They are 38mm wide with the tag as shown. If they look OK let me know.



Art
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, I do appreciate the offer Art but Jaguar mains are of the following widths:

Front 1.625"
Centre 1.375"
Inters 1.0625"
Rear 1.75"

The Phase 1 Vanguard and Fregy Tractor had three different widths

Front 1.7813"
Middle 1.75"
Rear 1.813"

By Vanguard Phase 3 they had adjusted them to be all the same width of 1.5". I guess your stock comes from Phase 3.

The Triumph TR2 however has all three at 1.75" which could provide our rear main.

Peter
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1480
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter,

The box says that they are for Standard Vanguard 1948/49. I can't for the life of me think why I had to buy 3 sets and only use 2 shells. Bloody altzhiemers Wink Confused

Art
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