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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1480
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter,

I use a couple of taper punches to locate the gasket then do the inside/outside parts.

Art
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter scott wrote:

I've just discovered that there is more work in this than I first thought.

I have two SS Jaguars, well the remains of a 1937 car (no body) and the 1939 one that's on the road. Having turned the new engine onto its side I see that it has been fitted with a cylinder head from a 1936 or 37 car. In most respects they are compatible except that the ports for the water manifold are spread along the full length of the '37 head whereas the 1939 car compressed things to fit within a shorter bonnet.


Well, this business of posting your thoughts on this forum is well worth doing.

Ed Nantes in Melbourne, emailed me as a result of reading this thread to point out that the water manifold porting arrangement that I thought was from a 1937 car was used right up to the start of the war. I had missed the fact that there is yet another version of the water manifold which allows for the wider spaced ports whilst still fitting under the 1938/39 car's shorter bonnet.

Thanks Ed, please keep reading the thread.

Peter
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http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1480
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter,

I take resposibility for Ed's contribution as I sent him the post. I also sent him the post about the MK IV drophead as he thought my car was the rustiest that he had ever seen.

Art Smile
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Art, I suspected you might have directed Ed to the forum. I hope he keeps following this thread at least.

Yes the drophead must be even worse than your car and it's not the only one. When I first saw the Stoneliegh one my mind turned to this one but they are not one and the same car...

See next post

Peter Very Happy
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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon


Last edited by peter scott on Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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47p2



Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 2009
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mean to say this is going back on the road Shocked


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One of Britain's Fine Cars
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John,

I do know the owner but he's kind of gone to ground in another sense. I think he's rather absorbed with other projects but I think his would be an easier proposition than the other one I saw at the weekend.

Peter Rolling Eyes


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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon


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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back on topic, Embarassed I made a little more progess. The engine didn't come with a front plate or a flywheel. Fortunately the flywheel is a common part with the 1 1/2 litre engine and is therefor more available, Whilst the front plate is shared with the 3 1/2 litre it's not common with the 1 1/2 and is thus harder to come by. However 10 minutes with an angle grinder and the unwanted top corner of the 1 1/2 litre can be easily removed. Very Happy


Ed Nantes who emailed me in response to this thread, and has worked on these cars for many more years than me, saved me from going down the wrong track with the cylinder head and had two other nice suggestions.

A few years back my MOT inspector said to me "this chassis is in very good condition... but I can see why." a reference to the "drip feed oil protection system" that SS Cars designed into the engine and gearbox.



Living in Australia where road salting is unheard of Ed decided to reduce the level of chassis protection with and good engineering solution.


As you can see above, the crankcase bridge pieces are alloy and they have, as Ed describes "spoon shaped" depressions cut into their upper surfaces to clear the main bearing cap nuts. The front and rear bridges each have two BSF bolts screwed into them as part of the sump retention and
the bolt holes pass right up into the spoons thus permitting oil to find its way down the bolt threads. Ed has eliminated this by screwing a short threaded alloy plug into the tops of holes where they enter the spoons and seals them with Loctite and centre punching.

Given that I'm also searching around for missing parts of the timing case Ed also mentions one of the very few historically common parts with "modern" cars, namely the timing chain and sprockets. Believe it or not the Triumph Herald and the 2000 continued to use compatible parts to the early '30s Standard 20 engine that my engine derives from
and if I were able to find the double row chain and sprocket set from these cars it would be a useful upgrade on my single row set.

Unfortunately I don't have a source of the double row chain set or the tensioner so I will stick with what I've got just now.

On the sump oil sealing I think I'll also press on with what I've got and apply Hylomar to the bolt threads and maybe put fibre washers under their heads. I think I currently get more leakage in fact from the adjacent bolts that also pass into the crankcase but are screwed into the cast iron rather than the bridge pieces.

Peter
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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon


Last edited by peter scott on Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A very welcome present arrived this morning from the gentleman that sold me the engine. Namely the correct water manifold. This the one in the centre of my collection. It is a little shorter than the earlier one above it but still much longer than the post war type I've been using to date.


Unfortunately, as soon as one part incompatibility is resolved, another emerges. This time it's the crankshaft pulley. I was hoping to use the one from my old 1937 engine but that pulley sits far too high on the taper. So I have probably got various choices of using the one current fitted to my car, repairing a broken one or obtaining one elsewhere.


To end on a positive note I tried Art's small ball pein technique for gasket making and must admit it does a much better job on the bolt holes. Thanks Art and to Jim Walker in another thread.


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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon


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Penman



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4751
Location: Swindon, Wilts.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
Quote:
This time it's the crankshaft pulley. I was hoping to use the one from my old 1937 engine but that pulley sits far too high on the taper. So I have probably got various choices of using the one current fitted to my car, repairing a broken one or obtaining one elsewhere.

If the belt groove has the correct face angles and the pulley is the correct diameter, would another option be to get the taper machined out?
"Sitting too high" appears, to me, to mean the hole is too small or the taper too coarse.
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your thoughts Penman, I'm a bit puzzled but this problem.
The surface of the pulley that the dog nut screws down onto actually sits
just above the top of the taper, which is what you'd expect unless a collar should be fitted between pulley and nut.


I'm not aware of such a collar in the parts list but what I haven't done yet is to re-mount the pulley on the crankshaft of the engine that I took it off. I think the
crankshaft in the foreground of the above photo is where it came from.

I'll also compare the taper dimensions of the two shafts.

Actually, as I look at the above photo I'm wondering if there is a parallel
sided collar sitting on the top of the taper. The distance from the Woodruff
key slot to the start of the thread looks different in the two shafts and there also appears to be a colour difference that I hadn't spotted when I was working on it.

edit: I've just measured the pulley and there is 1.04" of height from foot of scroll to nut surface. Whereas there is 1.28" from oil thrower to shoulder
on the crankshaft. I think I was wrong to suggest that it is tapered. Either that or it's a very shallow angle. Looking with a watch glass I can't see any separate collar that I suggested in the previous paragraph.

Thanks,

Peter
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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon


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Penman



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4751
Location: Swindon, Wilts.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
Would it help you to clean it all up and then engineer blue the inside of the pulley offer it up with a lightish tap and then see where it is touching and where not when you take the pulley off again.
Perhaps the key is binding
I to spotted the change of colour in the latter photo, could well indicate a spacer.
I suppose the only real proof is when all the pulleys are in place and you can see if they line up with each other.
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't see the colour change now. I suspect it might have been when I first attempted to mount the pulley onto the shaft. There were two or three burrs that caused scratches almost the full length of the pulley but I think I've now removed these with a fine file. The above photo was taken a few days ago before I did any work on it.

Yes, it is possible that the key is limiting the passage of the pulley as it's stuck in its groove at an angle that makes it higher at the inner end. The strange thing is that if the pulley was able to push fully onto the shaft then there would be a 1/4" gap between the pulley and the nut, even with the nut fully tightened down. The parts list does allow for shims between the pulley and nut but 1/4" of shims seems rather too much.

Peter
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http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon


Last edited by peter scott on Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1480
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter,

I seem to recall that there is a spacer between the first main bearing and the pulley. I remember it had a radiused edge on one side only to match the fillet on the crank. I dont recall a taper tho'.

Where does one get a water manifold for a fiver? (the bottom one).

Art
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art,

Thanks for the input. I know the 3 1/2 is different in that it has the crankshaft damper but the 2 1/2 doesn't have any spacer between front main and sprocket.



I've now discovered that the earlier crank that I took the pulley off has a different length "taper". Yes, I think it's a taper with an infinitely small angle
Embarassed Laughing so it looks like I need to find another pulley.



I was surprised to get that manifold for a fiver too. I thought when I bought it that there must be something wrong with it but if so, I can't see what it is. I think I bought it some years ago at Beaulieu.

Having come to dead end with the pulley I thought I'd give myself some sump cleaning therapy. It had been painted silver over a thick layer of primer at some time but it came off after an hour or so of wire brushing.
It looks a bit vulgar now but I'm confident that it will calm down with a bit of oxidation and oil coating. Smile

Peter

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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon


Last edited by peter scott on Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a bit stuck with the chaincase at the moment until I get the correct pulley so I thought I'd tackle some other bits and pieces.

The engine has no timing marks on it but setting up the valve timing is quite easy. The biggest bonus is that the timing is symetrical so the inlet opens 16 degrees before TDC and the exhaust closes 16 degrees after. To set the camshaft to the TDC position is therefor just a matter of having the inlet and exhaust valves sitting level with one on its opening slope the other closing.

The cylinder head looks well sealed on this engine so I don't want to disturb it. (Although maybe I should because I see its fitted with a copper asbestos gasket which the factory disliked on account of bore distortion.) Having the sump off at the moment I thought that lining up the big end bolts so that they sat symetrically between the main bearing nuts would accurately set the crank to TDC but I hadn't realised 'til now that the crankshaft doesn't sit directly below the centre line of the cylinders. Anyway, it wasn't too difficult to line up the con rod for TDC.

The camshaft pulley is quite nice in that it is designed to be settable to a 1/4 of a tooth because it has two sets of mounting holes and you can also turn the wheel over to give two further choices. You just have to make sure that the right handside of the chain is in tension when everything is set up for assembly.

The rear engine plate is missing its stabilising bracket so I intend to swap the plate with one that has the bracket welded on. However, this makes the engine more unweildy as it doesn't sit nicely on it's side so I'll leave that for now.

The flywheel that I've acquired was missing the little clutch cover alignment dowels so I made up a couple with interference fit in the flywheel and sliding fit the cover.


Another missing part is a working thermostat. Ed Nantes who put me straight on the water manifold suggested a couple of schemes for mounting a modern thermostat in the old housing. The difficulty with this is arranging for the modern thermostat to close off the bypass connection when up to temperature. Ed's schemes are quite clever but do involve some proper engineering. I did have a NOS thermostat that has the bypass connection in the wrong place so I thought I'd try swapping its innards into the correct housing.

This involves heating up the operating disc which is screwed onto the operating rod and locked with soft solder. With the disc removed the element can be rotated from its mounting and removed. Easier said than done. Fitting into the old housing isn't too tricky but needs the thermostat to be heated so that the operating rod is high enough to screw the disc on.

Below the two thermostats are dismantled and then the rebuilt one is tested cold and in hot water.

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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon


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