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After 15 Years of Searching...
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:14 am    Post subject: After 15 Years of Searching... Reply with quote

At Beaulieu this year I had a nice conversation that led to me buying an engine that I collected on Sunday. Although it's a bit of a curate's egg I'm absolutely delighted to have it. Why? Because it's fitted with steel con rods that I've been seeking for 15 years!

The dural rods that I've been using up 'til now have never let me down but old durals have a history of unpredictable failure resulting in major crankcase damage. They also expand more when hot so that oil pressure drops off under stress and the enlarged clearances increase hammering of the bearings.

So why a curate's egg? Whilst the gentleman that I bought it from had had it in store for many years it was a previous owner to him who had determined its condition. I bought it blind simply for the rods but the overall package is good enough to fit in the car after a bit of fettling. Very Happy

Plus points:

Excellent steel rods Very Happy
Re-bored with new pistons Very Happy
Crank re-ground with new mains and big-ends Very Happy



Silly faults and mods:

Someone has cut the beak off the crankshaft Evil or Very Mad
It should protrude well beyond the dog nut. Compare with uncut crank.

I understand the crankshaft nose job. The clearances for getting the engine out without fouling the chassis or the bulkhead are tricky but cutting the nose off is not neccesary and probably makes the starting handle unusable. However I think the dog nut is long enough that I can make a new beak and screw it in the front. Confused



Someone has fitted wrong bolts in the sump/crankcase bridge pieces Evil or Very Mad

As to the bridge pieces, these are critical to good oil sealing and the use of wrong screws has ruined the threads in the alloy bridge and the mating cran shaft end seal so I'll need to source replacements. The rear bridge has two long screws that pass horizontally through to the end seal and these are supposed to be wired but this was clearly omitted at some stage because I found the remains of one bolt in the sump that will have unscrewed itself and then been sheared off by the crank and the other has been fitted with a nasty modern undrilled bolt which has the wrong thread. Evil or Very Mad



Someone has gone mad with ¾" taper plugs and drilled for and fitted one in the side plate Rolling Eyes

The last picture shows the rusty thread of a parasitic plug (to the right of timing chain). I can't understand why this has been fitted. It doesn't give access to anything. I can only assume it was someone experimenting with some alternative crankcase breathing arrangement. The normal breather (further along the side) has had its pipe truncated.


I intend to sort out the sillies in the bottom end and refit the sump then clean-up the block and re-paint it prior to fitting it in the car. I don't know what the state of the water passages is but it doesn't look too bad peering in through a missing core plug and various other water apperatures.

As to the head I'm going to assume that it was re-conditioned when the bores and crank were done and I can always whip it off if need be once I've seen how it runs.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Peter Confused
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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon


Last edited by peter scott on Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:22 am; edited 3 times in total
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47p2



Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 2009
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An excellent find Peter, and great pictures. Keep us up to speed with what's happening with this
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the encouragement John, I do need it!

I've just discovered that there is more work in this than I first thought.

I have two SS Jaguars, well the remains of a 1937 car (no body) and the 1939 one that's on the road. Having turned the new engine onto its side I see that it has been fitted with a cylinder head from a 1936 or 37 car. In most respects they are compatible except that the ports for the water manifold are spread along the full length of the '37 head whereas the 1939 car compressed things to fit within a shorter bonnet.

Here's the old water manifold placed alongside the one in the '39 car. As you can see the thermostat housing ends up where the top hose should be. Crying or Very sad


Here's the old manifold against the new engine with all its ports lining up.


Oh well, every cloud...The engine for my 1937 car is sitting forlornly headless (head frost cracked) so the new one can migrate over there
and I'll need to recondition another 1939 head that 's lying dormant at the moment. Confused

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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon


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47p2



Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 2009
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like you're in for a busy winter Peter, not so bad that you have another head to play around with. I assume this will be a straight swap once it has been reburbished?
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John,

Yes, theoretically it's a straight swap. I took it off my '39 car because it tended to weep water from the block corners so it will need to be skimmed
and it probably could do with new valve guides too. Crying or Very sad

I might get away with the existing valves. Rolling Eyes

Peter
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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon
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47p2



Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 2009
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For all the extra expense of valves, and whilst everything is stripped, I personally would be tempted to fit new ones Peter. Are the valve seats hardened for unleaded?
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John,

Yes, I might just replace the valves as well as the guides. From memory there was no problem with the seats and there is not a lot of surrounding metal in these heads so I think I'll steer clear of hardened seats. Could give me much worse problems if I fit them.

Managed to pick up a flywheel, bridge pieces and crank rear oil seal tonight.
Also got a front plate which might need a little modification but looks promising too.

Since the head has to come off I guess I should do that soon but I'm tempted to sort out the bottom end first. I don't like all those nice clean bearings exposed to the light of day.

Peter
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1480
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter,

Great find. Is that an SS engine or one from a MK V?

Art
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Art,

Yes, it is an SS engine and its number is L1885E so it did leave the factory with steel rods. Although my car came to me with engine L20E,
an alloy rod engine, it had originally been fitted with L1424E. They were
alloy up to L1050, steel from L1051 to P200 and alloy again thereafter.

Curiously enough the last car it lived in was a Mark IV and the old guy who owned it wanted it swapped out for a Mark IV engine. Given that it's fitted with an early SS head with the long water manifold I'm not sure how he'd have made connection to the radiator. It must have been a bit of a botch.

I got most of the missing parts from Ken Page's 1 1/2 litre pile last night. By a happy coincidence the flywheel is actually the same part number as used on the 1 1/2 litre. The bridge pieces and the rear oil seal are also common.
The front plate has some small differences but I think I can modify it to fit.

Peter


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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon


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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to get the front plate, rear crank oil seal and the sump sorted out so that I can get the engine closed up before cleaning it off and painting it.

Today I cleaned up the replacement bridge pieces and rear crank oil seal that Ken Page kindly gave me. Fitting the oil seal requires a paper gasket for which I'm using good quality drawing paper. Just pressing onto the casting gives a good impression of the shape and the bolt holes can be marked using a rounded tool, such as the rounded back end of the finger holes of my scissors, to force the paper into the holes. Dirty hands are a help for this operation.


I find that it's easier to punch the bolt holes out. You just have to carefully position the hole site over a same sized hole in a metal plate then punch through with a bolt. Any little chads can be trimmed off with scissors.


It's probably better to punch the holes before cutting the outline as the paper is less likely to distort or tear.


The oil seal for this engine is a spiral type and it's important that the crankshaft doesn't actually touch the oil seal so three little pieces of shim brass are used the centralise the seal prio to tightening up the bolts.


Not wishing to have the same problem as the previous owner, where the bolts securing the oil seal to the bridge piece rattled lose and got sliced off by the crank, I've fitted the locking wire to the bolts.

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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon


Last edited by peter scott on Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:35 am; edited 2 times in total
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1480
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter,

That's interesting about the alloy rods. I thought they first appeared on the T series engines in the MK V. My engine is S1515 and it had alloy rods. I've fitted XJ steel rods but I don't think they are the proper ones. When making gaskets I use a small ball pein hammer to punch the holes. Place the ball end over the hole to be punched and give the other end a tap and you get a clean cut.

Art
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art,

On the 3 1/2 litre they fitted C.454 rods from M1 to M1600 and S26 to S150
and then changed to C.1049 rods from S151 onwards.
Then the Mark V continued to use C.1049 for T5001 to T6790 until they changed to C.2844 from T6791 to T9999 and from Z1501 to Z2198

Z2199 was the start of C.2448 which also continued into the first 2000 odd Mark VIs

I think C.454 is steel and C.1049 is dural which fits with your S1515 but C.2844 and C2448 are steel again.

I envy you the commonality of rod dimensions with the XKs. It certainly makes obtaining bearings an awful lot easier. However my move to L1885
has brought me into the occasionally seen category instead of the haven't seen those for years. Rolling Eyes

Your ball pein punch sounds a rather more accurate method than mine.

Peter
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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon
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47p2



Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 2009
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use the outside edge of an open ended spanner to cut my gaskets.

A large spanner for the larger parts and a small spanner for the holes. Smile
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art's technique should give better defined holes but the problem I have is preventing the paper from moving as you bang out the holes. My approach and I think yours too means that the punching of the holes is separate from the marking of their positions and is thus easier to control.

Peter
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1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon
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47p2



Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 2009
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cut outside and inside of the gasket first and then tackle the holes. Never had a problem yet Shocked
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