Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.
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Ashley
Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 1426 Location: Near Stroud, Glos
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Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:14 pm Post subject: Rebuilding a Bristol 400 |
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I've spent the last three years or more rebuilding this 400 Bristol. It has been a fearfully expensive exercise despite the fact that I did much of it myself. It was as rotten as a pear and the block and head on the rebuilt engine were scrap! I was lucky to have sold a MKVI Bentley I'd rebuilt to fund the work, but it has been difficult, stressful and challenging and if I ever do another, it will be something more conventional and less expensive!
Last year I drove about 2000 miles across France to prove it and then returned home to completely rebuild the NSF suspension, fit an MGB clutch and a later Borg Warner Gearbox to make it easier to drive. Now it's quite fast, handles well, has a firm ride, is rather noisy in that it sounds like an old racing car and it cruises at 80 mph where permitted.
Here it is before rebuild:
and after:
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Rick Site Admin
Joined: 27 Apr 2005 Posts: 22429 Location: UK
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Greg
Joined: 03 Dec 2007 Posts: 445 Location: Dreamland Margate
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 12:17 am Post subject: |
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A Very stylish car, I can imagine that in a film
Well it certainly looks the part now after restoration,
very nice job |
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Ashley
Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 1426 Location: Near Stroud, Glos
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:36 am Post subject: |
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I thought it would be easier than my MKVI Bentley that I've been improving for ten years now, but it was much worse and just as expensive in the end.
It was terrible rusty underneath because the sill, which is under the wing, welds to a flange along the bottom edge of the chassis leaving a V shaped groove that fills with water from in the bonnet and the hole for the Trafficator. There was a tremendous amount of welding that I can't do and then I discovered that the rebuilt engine was scrap, or the block and head were, so I had to find replacements and rebuild it again, which was terrifyingly expensive.
The leather and moquette were okay but it needed a new wiring loom, new carpets and a headlining and I had to have the speedo, revcounter, clock and oil/water temperature gauge rebuilt. The wood didn't need much though.
Once I had it together it was obvious the brakes were useless so I fitted a servo and Alfin drums, the early type gearbox refused to change gear when it was hot and the two nearside shock absorbers had to be rebuilt several times before I got them working properly.
I bought a new Lockheed Master cylinder and lost the brakes four times before I realised that the fluid was going straight out of the breather in the filler cap! Lockheed are still supplying the same faulty unit and have done since '94, they've ignored my protests and not refunded my money for something that might have killed me, but Past Parts know about the problem and so do quite a few in the classic car business, but Lockheed is difficult to contact with rude unhelpful employees, so the problem persists.
I managed to buy a pattern one from Lucas that works correctly.
Another nightmare was carburettion. The car has three Solexes as on a Series I Land Rover, a Standard Vanguard or a Light 15 and beyond cleaning them, I had no understanding. I have now!. The jetting was completely wrong and it appears that Bristol didn't totally sort it until the mid fifties, so after months of trial and error, my car pulls smoothly from tick over and power comes in at about 2000 rpm. I've also fitted an overdrive so that 3000 rpm gives 75 mph, which is a very high cruising speed for a 2 litre made in 1949.
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peter scott
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 7113 Location: Edinburgh
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:52 am Post subject: |
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Hi Ashley,
Welcome to the forum. Your car looks superb! Is there any commonality of parts with the BMW 326/328?
Peter _________________ http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon |
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Ashley
Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 1426 Location: Near Stroud, Glos
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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The engine and gearbox are 328, although I've fitted a later one with Borg Warner syncro-mesh. The suspension, steering and shock absorbers on mine are BMW 326 I think, although later cars uses Teles because they were cheaper.
I think it is true to say that Bristol made mistakes, but basically improved the reliability and durability of the BMW bits. They were a much bigger company with enormous resources accrued for the war effort.
The question one has to ask though is what value making 420 cars over a four year period was to a company employing 60,000 people. Once the war had stopped there were huge numbers needing something to do.
During the early post war years till 1950 the British Car Industry claimed with some justification, IMO, to make the best cars in the world and they exported over a million, which was a credible effort to say the least.
Sadly government interference made them less competitive in international markets and the Germans overtook as the largest exporter in '55. |
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Ashley
Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 1426 Location: Near Stroud, Glos
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Peter
Years ago I had a 3.5 Litre Jaguar like yours. It had low oil pressure because the dural conrods had stretched as they did, but it was quite fun. I couldn't afford to rebuild it then.
Interestingly R-R bought one before the war because they were £400 and the cheapest Derby Bentley was £1400. They examined it extensively and had to admit that it was probably as good and as fast, but in testing it for durability, they drove it flat out for some time I think at Brooklands until it dropped a valve and then they billed Jaguar for the repairs. Sir William or William as he was then wrote an amusing reply telling them politely to p--- off!
Ash |
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peter scott
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 7113 Location: Edinburgh
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Ash,
Thanks for the BMW relationship.
If you look at my web page http://www.scottpeter.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ss_jaguar.htm you'll see that I was quite amused by the RR/Bentley comparison too.
I just recently fitted steel rods to my car but over the 16 years that I've been running her I figured that the durals did cause a drop in hot oil pressure just because the thermal time constant was so fast. If you drove hard the pressure dropped away but it only took a very short spell of slower motoring to make it recover. Much too fast for the 2.5 gallons in the sump to cool down.
I did try heating a dural rod and a steel rod in a frying pan of oil and there was certainly a much bigger increase in big end diameter in the dural.
Can you remember the registration number of your 3.5litre?
Peter _________________ http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon |
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Ashley
Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 1426 Location: Near Stroud, Glos
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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I can't but I do have a photo somewhere if I can find it. It was in 1969-70!
Nothing else on the planet is built in the way that Rolls-Royce and Bentley are and that makes them fascinating if expensive to rebuild. Whether or not that is a benefit is another matter, but everything does look superb. My MKVI has the most beautiful con rods of forged steel machined on all surfaces and polished with a pressure feed to the small ends. You'd think they were from an old racing car rather than a similar engine to the one in a Ferret Scout car or Humber Rolls truck!
Ash
What a filing system! Here you are and taken in '69. The car belonged to Richard Orchard and for some reason I ended up with it for about a year. On the left is an XK140 belonging then to Frank Walker, long dead but father to Ted of Ferret Photographics and I don't remember whose was the XK150.
The registration is FWM650 |
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peter scott
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 7113 Location: Edinburgh
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Ashley wrote: | My MKVI has the most beautiful con rods of forged steel |
I do agree with you. I have a Griffon piston and conrod that I removed from the remains of its engine on a hillside and it really is a work of art.
I have read the corrrespondence between Lyons and Robotham on the subject of the SS Jaguar and whilst I am critical of the Derby Bentley in my web page I don't really doubt that the Bentley will feel like a much higher quality piece of machinery.
I took a look at your Bristol workshop manual pages on your site. Superb stuff! Lots of useful dimensional info.
Thanks for the photo. I'm not sure of the number but tried FKW650, FHW650, FKM650, FNM650, FNW650 and FHM650 in DVLA but no signs I'm afraid.
Peter _________________ http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon
Last edited by peter scott on Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ashley
Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 1426 Location: Near Stroud, Glos
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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FWM650
A good Derby is impressive for a pre-war car, but very crude compared to the MKVI, but the quality of the overly complicated mechanics is a tool maker's wet dream!
I rather like the book The Kidnap Of The Flying Lady because it's an honest and dispassionate analysis of the history of the company and puts the cars into context.
The reality that I'll admit now but didn't for years is that Sir William Lyons made monkeys out of both WO Bentleys and R-R because he understood the market so much better.
After the event, we love the glorious excess of what were actually commercially unsound ventures at the time. I don't believe R-R made a profit on Cars in the thirties, instead they relied on Government re-armament for finances and as a result built some white elephants like the P3. Lord Hives took over in 36 and might have made them profitable if the war hadn't intervened. He was a friend of the Wilkes brothers who he rightly admired and I suspect their influence reflects the excellent, if far too expensive, design of the Bentley MKVI.
In the thirties R-R were way behind the Americans and the although the P3 was better when it was running perfectly, it wasn't most of the time and may have been a source of guarantee claims till the end of the fifties!
Sir William made a good car and a profit. |
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peter scott
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 7113 Location: Edinburgh
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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No luck with FWM650 either I'm afraid. At least it hasn't been transfered.
Yes, the Mark VI was quite impressive. My brother in law had one for a few years that had originally belonged to Sir Malcolm Sargent. Before he bought it I went around with him trying various VIs and R types. My first drive in an R type was quite scary. It had quite a heavy clutch and I remember trying to make right turn onto a congested main road. There was pillar box obscuring my view to the right and I had to edge this long nose out into the traffic in order to see. I still remember thinking "if my foot slips off this clutch pedal the engine is not going to stall"
The Mark VI went around corners surprisingly well as I recall.
Peter
p.s. Just realised that this is not the first time I've visited your very useful website. I had sourced the HMV100 service data in the past. Thanks. _________________ http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon
Last edited by peter scott on Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:56 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Ashley
Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 1426 Location: Near Stroud, Glos
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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The clutch should be as light as a feather literally and you're right, the handling and steering are amongst the best of all time. The later models are definitely for being driven in and not nice to drive IMO.
Many now agree that it was the second and last time Rolls-Royce made the best car in the world. They are one of the best driving cars of all time if they are in perfect condition, which most aren't. The trouble with R-Rs is that they are sufficiently different for most mechanics to do more harm than good.
My son runs a business restoring and re-trimming classic cars and finds that even the expensive ones from reputable sources costs thousands to put right, so they go and drive as they should. If you can find one, they are good value too because nobody realises how good they are.
I've been all over the UK and France in mine and even done a Louis Vuitton in Paris with it and I really love the thing. It whizzes along all day between 70-80 when conditions permit and provided it's not too hot!
Here it is in France:
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peter scott
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 7113 Location: Edinburgh
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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Quote from Ashley's website " I wanted a car with a nice patina but not something concours. I can understand why people do it, but for me, something is not fifty years old if it looks as though it was made yesterday and anyway I would be terrified of using it in case it got dirty or scratched. "
Couldn't agree more.
Peter _________________ http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2 1/2 litre saloon |
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Ashley
Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 1426 Location: Near Stroud, Glos
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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The old MKVI is pretty well as good as they can be mechanically and almost rust free, but the paint is getting tired in places.
I had to respray the Bristol by we only blew in the Bentley. It's a wonderful car to travel in provided it's not too hot, then both it and the occupants get hot and flustered. It's even okay on fuel and will do 19 mpg on a run and 22 if you're pottering at 50-60. It's extremely quiet like a good modern as well.
Ash |
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