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Rep C-Type builder sued by JLR
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 3668
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lowdrag wrote:
Ray, Jaguar have never officially given approval to any replica but have, like a parent to his offspring, smiled benignly from above. But the smile has become a scowl it seems. When I built the "Kettle" Jaguar could not have been more helpful, allowing me access to the archives and providing me with copies of photos. Neville Swales was allowed access when building his XJ13, although that relationship did turn sour in the end. Realm and Proteus are the big manufacturers of replica C-types, making cars and kits totalling near 300 each I am led to believe. There's the new nascent Lynx too. All we can do is await the outcome of the appeals, both in the case of INEOS and their Grenadier and in Sweden.

Hence my original question:

ukdave2002 wrote:
Its difficult to understand what JLR's motive is in this matter?

If someone was producing replicas of vehicles in production I could understand their issue.
JLR could have targeted other much larger replica firms who have replicas in production , but have chosen to target a one man and a dog operation who haven't sold anything?

I haven't read all the documentation, but I think there is something we are missing....

Dave


In my day job I work for a big corporate that will defend/challenge IP where there is a commercial or reputational exposure. At the other end of the scale, I'm part of an organisation that supplies parts for enthusiasts of vehicles designed over 80+ years ago, and to date the owners of the marque have been supportive.

So I refer to my original question; what's JLR is motive in this matter ?
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 4215
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there are plenty of people out there who just can't bear to see anyone having fun. They wouldn't be able to do anything constructive themselves so when they can they spoil it for others who can.
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lowdrag



Joined: 10 Apr 2009
Posts: 1446
Location: Le Mans

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ukdave2002 wrote:
lowdrag wrote:
Ray, Jaguar have never officially given approval to any replica but have, like a parent to his offspring, smiled benignly from above. But the smile has become a scowl it seems. When I built the "Kettle" Jaguar could not have been more helpful, allowing me access to the archives and providing me with copies of photos. Neville Swales was allowed access when building his XJ13, although that relationship did turn sour in the end. Realm and Proteus are the big manufacturers of replica C-types, making cars and kits totalling near 300 each I am led to believe. There's the new nascent Lynx too. All we can do is await the outcome of the appeals, both in the case of INEOS and their Grenadier and in Sweden.

Hence my original question:


So I refer to my original question; what's JLR is motive in this matter ?


Profit. A 500% margin seems good to me. If the Magnussens can sell a 100% correct copy for €250,000 and Jaguar for £1,5 million that seems reason enough for me.
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Vulgalour



Joined: 08 May 2018
Posts: 307
Location: Kent

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something at JLR seems to have changed in the last year or two. I can no longer produce artwork of any of their products (nor Lamborghini, Audi, BMW, Volvo, and Honda) because of this recent serious clamping down on copyright infringement.

The law on it seems to be quite fuzzy because even when people have asked permission and got it, the automated systems often take things down anyway. Then there's the ridiculous systems that have taken down a creator's original content because of a copyright claim that ends up in a daft feedback loop the creator often can't get out of.

And yet art theft, which is pretty rife, seems to be allowed to go unchecked, and I've had several peers in the creative community stop producing work altogether because of the frustration of it... and I'm off on a tangent so I'll stop here.
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lowdrag



Joined: 10 Apr 2009
Posts: 1446
Location: Le Mans

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been quite involved in this furore with Jaguar, having owned three replicas and still owning one today. There are a number of Jaguar employees who own replicas, and as far as one can see Jagaur seems to have had no idea that Jaguar had no idea what Jaguar Classic was doing, and now everyone is trying to extricate themselves from the mess. I wrote to the head of Jaguar Classic, and this letter was sent a month ago:-

13th February 2021-02-13

Dear Mr Pink,

I have read with interest your letter addressed to the Jaguar fraternity, as I prefer to call it, rather than community, and I consider it an honour to consider myself a part of this dedicated band. I am led to believe that the Swedish court case is subject to appeal, and we shall await the outcome, but in the meantime I wonder if you would clarify a few points for me please.

Now I understand the intellectual property rights, as well as copyright, and these laws are there for a reason. The Chinese Evoque case gives reason to these laws. However – and having been a Jaguar owner, real and replica, and even at one time builder – I would like to ask you just why Jaguar have waited seventy years to apply these inherent rights. And why, during this span of two generations, you have not sought to enforce your rights earlier than now.

Replicas of C-types, D-types, XKSS and XJ13 have been built for fifty years now, yet you await this moment to enforce your rights against the Magnussons in Sweden. In 1982 Peter Jaye started building exact copies of the C-type, twelve in number between 1982 and 1996, and Jaguar did not lift a figurative eyebrow. Since 1974 Lynx, with the acceptance – and aid – of Jaguar built C-types, D-types and XKSS replicas and have done so up to the present day, with never a murmur from Jaguar. I have had the pleasure of owning three Lynx cars, and while a pastiche rather than a proper car, I enjoyed them immensely; and, very much to the point, they gave enormous pleasure to other people at exhibitions throughout Europe. I still possess an XKSS. Having for years written articles extolling the virtues of all types of replicas, I feel certain that I have added substantially to those who found themselves desirous of such cars. My articles were well received in all parts of the globe; from the UK to Australia, to America and South Africa, and beyond. I have acted as an unpaid ambassador for the marque and its replicas since I purchased my first E-type in 1967. And it was not only Lynx; Wildcat and Challenger E-types, Nostalgia, Broomstick and Autotune built XK replicas, and others C and D-types, plus the XKSS. They too have acted as ambassadors for the marque. When I decided to build the “Kettle” 1952 Le Mans C-type in 2007, Jaguar opened their archives to me and gave me much encouragement and moral support in the project, which took five long years of research and two in construction.

If we come more to the present day, Goodwood stood firm for years and would not permit replicas to attend either the Festival or the Revival. Yet they have been forced to reconsider in the face of mounting values of real cars. I for one would not expect to see the 1956 Ecurie Ecosse short nose D-type racing. At over $20 million it would be foolish so to do.

Goodwood held a D-type only race at the Revival for the 60th anniversary in 2014, and the entries were mostly replicas. Because, quite simply, we the public want to see such cars race, and if the real cars are no longer available, then replicas will fulfil that need, The real cars are too valuable to race, and if we can no longer build a replica – or, in the case of a full FIA-papered copy as required to race – have one built for us, then racing will wither on the vine. The builders will not make one for us without making a profit; that is business.

Across the continents, people respect and admire the history of Jaguar and dream of owning such a car, real or replica, and since a real car is way above the wherewithal of most of us – myself included – we are forced to look at replicas. Jaguar itself owns replicas, one of which cost the first owner over £400,000.

For many years Jaguar gave us scant or no help in our love of the back catalogue of Jaguar cars. I have had my E-type nearly forty years and have four ring-binders of bills for parts and services, none of which were supplied by Jaguar. As an early flat floor it was, in the day, lent to Jaguar for displays including the 60th anniversary at the NEC because the JDHT did not have one. Companies like Martin Robey made and make body panels to help us keep our cars on the road. Barratts, Norman Motors, Manners and many others commissioned and stocked parts that would otherwise have meant the end of our cars. Indeed, I would like to know just what parts Jaguar is making for the new C-type rather than outsourcing. You have relied upon us as owners to keep the manufacturers in business all this time, and I firmly believe that, as things stand, amongst many of us the choice of a new car will no longer include the name Jaguar.


So, I hope you take this missive in the spirit it is intended, and that you will reply to the points raised. It is not just on behalf of myself that I write, but the thousands of replica owners and more importantly those who abruptly, after a lifetime in the Jaguar world, will find themselves without employment. There are, sadly, a great many of them across the continents.

I look forward to hearing from you with interest.


Yours faithfully


However, while I cannot divulge details, it would seem that as of yesterday there may well be light at the end of the tunnel. When the details become public, I will post again. As for the reason for the move by Jaguar - beats me! On the 70th anniversary of the C-type, and with but nine years left to build ICE cars, why start now? Sorry for the rather long post!
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