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Ethanol? More thoughts, from a respected source.
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1950
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:51 am    Post subject: Ethanol? More thoughts, from a respected source. Reply with quote

Some interesting thoughts & comments regarding the current ethanol buzz, from the MG enthusiast, Paul Ireland.

I link to his website wherein he encourages questions, and discussions, on various aspects of old engine designs, and modern fuels.
Especially nw we have so-called ''E10?''

Specifically I have linked to the thread concerning plastic floats.

Paul's latest response is , in my view, very succinct!

https://classicenginesmodernfuel.org.uk/Clubs/ModernFuel/BulletinBoard/Default.aspx?dyn_menu_useclub=1000001&dyn_menu_mainmenu=5

Quote:
From our tests, you are right about the media hype over the dangers of E10. I think the problem is that reporters are after sensationalism not fact. What is worse they do not report on the real problem with ANY ethanol blended petrol. The main issues I believe are:

Rain water or condensation in the tank. If left this will fall to the bottom of the tank or float chamber where it absorbs ethanol from the fuel becoming HIGHLY corrosive. This is NOT the same as the hygroscopic effect of ethanol. For this to be a problem you would have to store your vehicle in a very damp place for a number of years.
Degradation of rubber fuel hoses. In general these are cheap to replace and do not last for ever - ethanol or not.I have spent some time researching the internet to find the specification of ethanol proof petrol hoses as replacement. I have found, the specification they must meet is: DIN 73379 Type 3E (Rev. 11/97). (See specification). Make sure you search for Type 3E.
And ...... it is expensive. Do not be fooled by the cheap products. In the UK I have found a reliable supplier of hoses and clips: Advanced Fluid Solutions

Enleanment. E10 makes the mixture leaner requiring carburettors to be retuned. In practice the E10 rating is a MAXIMUM percentage or ethanol hence you will never know what percentage the petrol you fill up with contains making it difficult to tune your carbs.
The big benefit of ethanol blended fuel is that it reduces cyclic variability. This gives you slightly more power and causes less damage to the engine.



Paul's comments regarding ethanol being hygroscopic are interesting too.
many folk quote this aspect as being a reason for avoiding ethanol in fuel. Yet, they seem to get the whole idea of water & ethanol the wrong way round?
Yes, as Paul notes, ethanol is hygroscopic. But, not at the rates most folk want to allude to.
It probably absorbs water not much differently to the rate brake fluid absorbs water...IE, very very slowly!
The danger for us isn't the hygroscopic nature of ethanol!
It's the fact that if water [such as rain water] gets into the fuel tank, it falls to the bottom as a large droplet, then sucks out the ethanol from the petrol! Thus becoming very acidic, and starts corroding stuff. Spot corrosion, rather than general corrosion!

Paul makes the point regarding rubber fuel hoses too.

Nothing to do directly with ethanol content, but everything to do with the way modern fuels degrade rubber over time.

I note that Holley [carburetors] have been selling their spare rubber diaphragms in not only their standard materials, but also in ethanol resistant rubber as an option.
Maybe it's time other manufacturers of spare fuel parts started to acknowledge that ethanol is here to stay, like it or not. Plus, as Paul's tests have proved, ethanol is actually beneficial to the running of older engine designs.

A recent YouTube video by Fuzz Townsend regarding his having to fill up with E10 in his pre-war Austin{??} whilst on a run out....and how impressed he was by the improvement in the car's running ......after it had mixed with the small amount of other fuel he had left in its tank, might go someway to countering the broo-hah-hah of media [and car enthusiast] sensationalism?

To comply with Paul Irelands request when linking and quoting to & from his website, I include the link to his book cataloging the results from the Manchttps://www.veloce.co.uk/store/Classic-Engines-Modern-Fuel-The-Problems-the-Solutions-p151478624hester University tests.
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V8 Nutter



Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 587

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't guarantee it, but all replacement parts made for American cars, even obsolete models, over the last 20 years are supposed to be ethanol resistant. In the U.K. it's supposed to be since 2011 for European and Japanese models. I have a friend who now lives in Canada and he is running 50's and 60's cars on 85% ethanol with no problems.
In the U.K. when replacing petrol pipes ask for R6 or R9. R6 is designed for carburettors and comes in Imperial sizes. R9 is designed for the higher pressure of fuel injection, that comes in metric sizes. Any GOOD motor factor should be able to supply either type. Make sure it is marked R6 or R9. without the markings it may not be the real thing
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MVPeters



Joined: 28 Aug 2008
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Location: Northern MA, USA

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

V8 Nutter wrote:
I wouldn't guarantee it, but all replacement parts made for American cars, even obsolete models, over the last 20 years are supposed to be ethanol resistant. In the U.K. it's supposed to be since 2011 for European and Japanese models. I have a friend who now lives in Canada and he is running 50's and 60's cars on 85% ethanol with no problems.
In the U.K. when replacing petrol pipes ask for R6 or R9. R6 is designed for carburettors and comes in Imperial sizes. R9 is designed for the higher pressure of fuel injection, that comes in metric sizes. Any GOOD motor factor should be able to supply either type. Make sure it is marked R6 or R9. without the markings, it may not be the real thing


The MINI is stated by the manufacturer to be E10-compatible since 2000. I imagine that could also be true for other major European makes like BMW, MB, VW, Audi, etc but it's worth checking.

Earlier cars may 'run' on E85 but not very efficiently. E85 is often referred to as 'Flex-fuel' & needs engine modifications.
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norustplease



Joined: 11 Apr 2011
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Location: Lancashire

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the side effects of ethanol is that if you have used in the past, one of the proprietary petrol tank liners from, say, ten years ago to cure a rusty tank interior, then you may well have trouble since some of the systems available were not ethanol proof, and can be dissolved or flake off. This is obviously potentially catastrophic for your carburettor and filter system and the only cure may be a new tank.
There is quite a good video on the Amazon Cars' website where the proprietor goes through issues when using E5/E10. It is obviously Volvo orientated but most of the points made can be applied to any classic car with a carburettor and he feels that subject to making a few simple modifications such as replacing flexible fuel tubing with an appropriate grade, then there should be no issues.
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Last edited by norustplease on Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
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Location: Derby

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it is of interest (it may not be) I use Tapox for tank sealing. The only problem I found in the past is that many of these ethanol proof (rather than just resistant) products are sold in small quantities for motorcycles rather than cars.

O.K. if you have an Austin Seven... Wink
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lowdrag



Joined: 10 Apr 2009
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Location: Le Mans

PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting. What say you to the additives such as Duckhams? I am finding here that E5 is pretty well still available in most places although I did come across one garage with only E10 so I bought 98 instead. But does this additive cure the potential problem?

https://www.duckhams-oils.com/product/classic-fuel-treatment/
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
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Location: Derby

PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lowdrag wrote:
Very interesting. What say you to the additives such as Duckhams? I am finding here that E5 is pretty well still available in most places although I did come across one garage with only E10 so I bought 98 instead. But does this additive cure the potential problem?

https://www.duckhams-oils.com/product/classic-fuel-treatment/


They don't actually say which side effects of ethanol petrol the additive is countering.

If it can somehow prevent hydroscopic effects I would be interested in trying it. I have my doubts it will do that - if it is so, whey is it not flagged up.

Duckhams, of course, is nothing more than a Hackneyed
brand name now.
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Crashbox



Joined: 30 Apr 2021
Posts: 139

PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Over on the International 2CV Friends forum, the question over E10 has been asked. It appears E10 has been around on continental Europe and in the USA for more than enough time for a number of 2CV'ers who didn't want to spend extra on Super (E5) or additives, to rack up the mileage using just E10. The consensus is that the 2CV in its later iteration (the M28 602cc engine from 1970-1990) runs absolutely fine after many tens of thousands of miles.

I've been a little more cautious with the Minor even though a brand of petrol with added ethanol was available when it was new in 1932. I have had to refuel a few times with E10 but refills with E5 at the next available opportunity.

I've noticed a similar conversation on the Austin Seven forum and quite a few members who come across as knowing their onions when it comes to the Seven have said they will happily use E10.
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norustplease



Joined: 11 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what Duckhams say.

Ethanol is a hygroscopic material, meaning it absorbs water from the atmosphere, if enough water is absorbed from the atmosphere this can lead to phase separation, where the ethanol and water separate from the petrol, giving an acidic water layer at the bottom of the fuel tank which can corrode the tank, and damage the engine when trying to start it. Duckhams Classic Fuel treatment is formulated with a stabiliser additive which prevents the ethanol and water separating, protecting the fuel system components and the engine.

Duckhams Classic Fuel Treatment is formulated containing corrosion inhibitor additives which protect fuel system components, such as tanks, fuel lines and carburettors, from corrosion, even when using petrol containing ethanol. It also prevents the formation of acids within the fuel, again preventing corrosion of the components of the fuel system.

Duckham Classic Fuel Treatment is designed to work as a lead replacement treatment protecting against valve seat recession in engines designed to run on leaded petrol.

The addition of a gasoline detergent, combined with the stabiliser, prevents gum formation and keeps the engine system clean, maintaining the performance of the engine.

APPLICATIONS Suitable for use in petrol engines designed to run on older petrol formulations, both with lead and without ethanol, preventing corrosion and valve seat recession.

Duckhams Classic Fuel Treatment is compatible with other commonly used fuel additives. Duckham Classic Fuel Treatment should be added directly to the fuel tank. Add one measure (25ml) to the tank for every 25 litres of fuel added.


Of these, the hygroscopic issue is the most dubious. The amount of moisture that the ethanol is likely to absorb in use is quite small, the main issue as I understand it, is that of condensation in tanks that are left half full whilst the car is rested for long periods. The nature of the fuel means that it sits on top of any water that is formed in the tank and this then promotes corrosion.
There is also the issue of tanks lined with non ethanol resistant materials, which will disintegrate and clog up jets and filters.

The fuel stabiliser issue is probably valid, modern fuels lose a large percentage of their volatile elements after only a few weeks so again, a car that is stored or left unused for weeks or months at a time, is likely to have starting or running issues unless the tank is freshened up with a significant amount of new fuel. A stabiliser is a fairly essential ingredient in a car that is being laid up or used infrequently.

It may be possible to inhibit corrosion to a degree on metallic components, but I don't believe that an additive will stop ethanol perishing rubber hoses, etc. that are not an ethanol resistant grade. I think that a change of hose to an appropriate grade is essential. I believe that most of the reputable carburettor and pump overhaul kits are ethanol resistant, so buy carefully from someone like Burlen and not some cheap Chinese knock-off advertised on Ebay.

The lead replacement element is probably okay. That particular technology has been around for some time now, so should be valid.

Beware of snake oil products that are not quite what they seem, take a few sensible precautions to upgrade the more vulnerable elements of your car fuel system and I suspect that most of the alarmist predictions in the popular press will prove to be false. the danger with all of these additives is that they imply that you can simply add to the tank and then forget any problems. Not so, as with all aspects of running an old car, you need to be rather more ahead of the game than that.
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Miken



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I usually fill up from my local Sainsburys, about 1 mile away.
But now, my nearest supplier of E5 is about 10 miles away.
A couple of Weeks ago I needed petrol and it was a good excuse for a run out.
When I got there all the E5 pumps were locked off as they had run out, so I just filled up with E10.
Maybe we will have to start phoning ahead to see what they have in stock and plan accordingly.
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alanb



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m on my second fill of E10 in my 37 Morris 8 and I must say if anything it runs better than on E5 which I have been using the last few years without problems.
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Ray White



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alanb wrote:
I’m on my second fill of E10 in my 37 Morris 8 and I must say if anything it runs better than on E5 which I have been using the last few years without problems.


I may have recalled this before; I can't remember ...but when I was a young lad my Dad would go out of his way to fill up his Morris 8 with 'Cleveland Discol' before we left for our Summer holiday. He said that the ethanol gave the car a bit more "get up and go". Wink
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Crashbox



Joined: 30 Apr 2021
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've done about 400 miles on E10 so far in my 1932 Minor. Seems okay.
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alanb



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cleveland Discol was 20% ethanol, very popular up until the mid sixties, it vas my father’s choice of fuel as he said his cars always ran better on it, I also ran my first Morris 8 and my 1955 Standard 8 on it as the Cleveland garage was handily next to the technical college.
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alastairq



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Cleveland Discol was 20% ethanol


Do you have access to the actual percentages of ethanol in Cleveland Discol?

I ask because the Manchester University testers couldn't find any reference to the percentage ethanol content.....

Reference to Paul Ireland's tests and research, he suggests that anything up to the 5% ethanol content would have little impact on the rubbers and gasket materials used in pre-1970's vehicles..
Which is why the E10 is causing a worry, as at that percentage, we really do need to watch our hoses.
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