Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.
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alastairq
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1950
Location: East Yorkshire
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 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | but the pedestrian or cyclist who has never driven has no need to read the highway code |
However, the Highway Code is freely available for them to access.
If it comes to a Court appearance, then, as in all things, ''ignorance'' of the rules or advice is 'no excuse'...
The comment about rules being for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men I find sits quote happily alongside the axiom of applying ''common sense''.
Where, one man's ''common sense'' is another man's idiocy.
I find the ''wise men' out on the roads to be far more of a danger than the fools.
The issues around road safety largely stem from folk thinking they are intelligent enough to make up their own minds as to what is 'safe' or not.
The reality is, most so-called intelligentsia on the roads actually have an ignorance of the 'bigger picture'' that borders on arrogance.
What I do find strange is that, in a society where, education-wise, we encourage further and adult education....degrees, etc etc....Yet when it comes to driving....few drivers actually seek to further their driver education.
Maybe because, drivers think they know all they need to know?
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
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Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces. |
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Ray White
Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 6304
Location: Derby
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| MVPeters wrote: | | There's probably a gravestone somewhere "I had the right-of-way". |
...if not, there soon will be! |
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Penman
Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4755
Location: Swindon, Wilts.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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Hi
Someone may have priority, but only NOMAN has rightof way!
_________________
Bristols should always come in pairs.
Any 2 from:-
Straight 6
V8 V10 |
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lowdrag
Joined: 10 Apr 2009
Posts: 1585
Location: Le Mans
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| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| One of the most idiotic parts was the braking distances for given speeds. These were applicable when we drove on skinny crossplies with rod-operated drum brakes and no servo. Clarkson did a test using a BMW and he took less than half those quoted in the Highway Code. Have they revised them in the new version? |
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alastairq
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1950
Location: East Yorkshire
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| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| lowdrag wrote: | | One of the most idiotic parts was the braking distances for given speeds. These were applicable when we drove on skinny crossplies with rod-operated drum brakes and no servo. Clarkson did a test using a BMW and he took less than half those quoted in the Highway Code. Have they revised them in the new version? |
Who knows?
Plus, who is going to stop and measure them?
If you are travelling at 60 mph, can you accurately guess your absolute stopping distance ahead, as you travel along?
The whole thing was an exercise in ''examples''....About, making a point.
Not about absolutes.
If one thinks about it it, no two people are going to stop their vehicles , from similar speeds [since no two people travel at exactly the same speed, do they?]...in exactly the same distances.
Maybe roughly so, but not exactly.
Plus, with the universal advent of ABS, stopping distances may well increase under many circumstances. [A problem with ABS]
Then there will be the infinite variety of 'thinking' distances?
At my age, my ''reaction'' times will be two or three times longer than those of a twenty-something year old. Yet I manage to respond far quicker than young drivers. So, what's going on??
At one time, distancing for drivers was given in car lengths. Or, lorry lengths.
Until someone pointed out how different everyone's perception of a 'car length' actually was.
Now, the advice is given using TIME.
Measuring, or mentally counting off a few seconds, is easy for most people [if they bother to think about it?]
Plus, if counting seconds, the actual distance covered can vary according to the actual road speed.
In fact, TIME is one of the most important methods of assessing situations on the roads for a driver, if they but realised it.
What is often forgotten is that much of the Highway Code stems from having to deal with changing risks.
For example, responses by the HC to an increase in a certain type of collision?
Or responses to a dramatic change in how folk are using the Public Highways?
In the latter case, even I have to admit the root cause of the current crop of rules stem from the behaviours of motor vehicle drivers. The deplorable lack of care, or concern, demonstrated by them?
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
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Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces. |
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Ray White
Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 6304
Location: Derby
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| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:34 am Post subject: |
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I don't know if Alastair has mentioned it but I believe (maybe wrongly?) that there is a factor which needs to be taken into consideration...and that is weight.
My P38 weighs a colossal 4478lbs which despite good brakes and tyres is going to take longer to stop than my wife's Lexus at 3850lbs. |
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alastairq
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1950
Location: East Yorkshire
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| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| Ray White wrote: | I don't know if Alastair has mentioned it but I believe (maybe wrongly?) that there is a factor which needs to be taken into consideration...and that is weight.
My P38 weighs a colossal 4478lbs which despite good brakes and tyres is going to take longer to stop than my wife's Lexus. |
I hadn't mentioned weight, sorry.. Mind, there is a presumption that when specifying brake size, tyre width, etc, that weight is a consideration?
My old Daihatsu 4Trak has quite large rear brakes for the 'size' of the vehicle. But then one realises the manufacturer specifies a towing [trailer] weight of 3.5 tonnes!
Some years ago, whilst a sometime contributor to a 'driving' forum, a young person put up a post, complaining that they had been held liable, and were being prosecuted [for careless driving] because they had run into the rear of a new Mercedes, which had stopped for a pedestrian crossing.
What he found unfair was, the new Mercedes was equipped with those soopah doopah, stop-in-half-the-distance, braking systems! [No idea what they were called]
It took quite a few posts from various contributors...Police, etc, to convince him he was being held liable because he was driving too close in the first place.
Not before he stated he was intending to claim against the pedestrian for making the Mercedes driver stop!
I wonder how quick a car would stop if the engine threw a rod out of bed?
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces. |
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Ray White
Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 6304
Location: Derby
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| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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As a long time Austin Seven owner I am well used to having my brakes ridiculed. It's O.K. I am pretty thick skinned...and I haven't hit anything - or anyone. Yet!!
When I first drove the car I was frightened by the virtual non existence of stopping power and decided to do something about it. There were many options but I wanted to keep the car as original as possible so a hydraulic disc conversion was a non starter. (or non stopper, if you like).
The first thing I did was to renew the brake shoes but not before I had stopped oil from getting on them from the axle. I also renewed all the moving parts but I instinctively felt that new cables would stretch so I kept the old ones. Perhaps the best change was replacing the pressed steel brake drums with new cast iron ones. This was expensive and also time consuming as I had to machine them to fit properly but they don't fade now.
The most difficult part was getting the adjustment right. My car dates from when Austin "coupled" the front and rear brakes - so they both work on the pedal AND the hand brake - but sadly there is no compensator. Consequently, a compromise needs to be made.
The front brakes are adjusted to come on slightly ahead of the rears but they are equalled out by the fact that the front radius arms bend slightly under braking allowing the front axle to rotate slightly and in doing so allow the rear brakes to help slow the car.
There is also another idiosyncrasy in that the brake cross tube brackets allow for a twist which means that the near side rear comes on after the off side. The way this is dealt with is to ensure that the off side rear brake is adjusted to come on slightly later than the near side.
This may sound like a palaver but it works. The way to check that you have got it right is to see if all four wheels lock on gravel. If you can get the wheels to lock you can't do much more as the ability to stop depends on tyre contact with the tarmac. |
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alastairq
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1950
Location: East Yorkshire
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| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Have you tried the 'soft' lings available, that replicate the softness of the old asbestos items? Modern lining material is far too hard for mechanical , old fashioned brakes...and is a common reason for folk maligning mechanical brakes. There are a few firms who sell & re-line brakes, who list the soft mixture for lining material.
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces. |
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Ray White
Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 6304
Location: Derby
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| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| alastairq wrote: | | Have you tried the 'soft' lings available, that replicate the softness of the old asbestos items? Modern lining material is far too hard for mechanical , old fashioned brakes...and is a common reason for folk maligning mechanical brakes. There are a few firms who sell & re-line brakes, who list the soft mixture for lining material. |
Yes, I have soft woven linings. The other advantage is they don't squeal. |
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Bitumen Boy
Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1735
Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| alastairq wrote: |
Plus, with the universal advent of ABS, stopping distances may well increase under many circumstances. [A problem with ABS]
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I loathe ABS, especially in the autumn when the roads are covered in leaves. Naff all braking because the wheels need to lock to scrape the slippery stuff aside and allow the tyres to actually contact the road... one of those wonderful ideas which doesn't quite work out there on real roads in the real world. |
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alastairq
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1950
Location: East Yorkshire
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Bitumen Boy wrote: |
one of those wonderful ideas which doesn't quite work out there on real roads in the real world. |
A blessing for lorry drivers, however.
I doubt one in a thousand current lorry drivers would have the skills, and the bottle, to cadence-brake an air-braked vehicle.
Simply because there is a noticeable time lag between the pedal being released, and the brakes actually releasing. Staying off the brake pedal when there's a kiddiwinkie in a push chair being wheeled out in front of one, takes bottle.
I've never owned a car that has had ABS....or ESP, or lane assist, or automatic braking, or self steering, or that has a better brain than me.
My newest airbags will be at least 20 years old by now, so may not go off should I be so lacking in awareness that I allow someone to hit me head-on....There's no way I can tell, providing the sensors are still working. Which they are, as the airbag light still goes out when starting up.
_________________
Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Fiat 126 BIS
Cannon special [1996 registered. Built in 1950's]
----------------------------------------------
Ford Pop chassis, Ashley 1172 bodyshell, in pieces. |
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petelang
Joined: 21 May 2009
Posts: 442
Location: Nottingham
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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It's all re-inventing the wheel, to solve an age old problem as can be seen in this short video.
https://youtu.be/LlyEIaRw010
Enterprising individuals in Sheffield!
Peter
_________________
Daimler Fifteen 1934
Armstrong Siddeley 15 Long 1933
Daimler V8 250 1969 |
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ukdave2002
Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4104
Location: South Cheshire
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Bitumen Boy wrote: | | alastairq wrote: |
Plus, with the universal advent of ABS, stopping distances may well increase under many circumstances. [A problem with ABS]
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I loathe ABS, especially in the autumn when the roads are covered in leaves. Naff all braking because the wheels need to lock to scrape the slippery stuff aside and allow the tyres to actually contact the road... one of those wonderful ideas which doesn't quite work out there on real roads in the real world. |
I must have had ABS on moderns for 30 years, in the early years I was doing 50k miles per year…..I could count on the fingers of one hand how many times ABS activated, my point being that one drives to the conditions, if there are greasy leaves…slow down, as soon as you skid you are out of control.
Dave |
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Bitumen Boy
Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1735
Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| ukdave2002 wrote: | | Bitumen Boy wrote: | | alastairq wrote: |
Plus, with the universal advent of ABS, stopping distances may well increase under many circumstances. [A problem with ABS]
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I loathe ABS, especially in the autumn when the roads are covered in leaves. Naff all braking because the wheels need to lock to scrape the slippery stuff aside and allow the tyres to actually contact the road... one of those wonderful ideas which doesn't quite work out there on real roads in the real world. |
I must have had ABS on moderns for 30 years, in the early years I was doing 50k miles per year…..I could count on the fingers of one hand how many times ABS activated, my point being that one drives to the conditions, if there are greasy leaves…slow down, as soon as you skid you are out of control.
Dave |
It depends how you define a skid. What I'm talking about without ABS was a momentary skid that ended as soon as the tyre of the affected wheel pushed aside the thin layer of leaves (or whatever) and was able to make contact with and grip the tarmac underneath, at which point the wheel turns again and the brakes can do their job. Is a skid that lasts under a second really a skid, really a loss of control?
I had an old Vauxhall Corsa - 2001, no ABS. After many many miles it became increasingly troublesome and unreliable - as soon as one problem was fixed, another would emerge, you know how it goes. It was starting to use a noticeable quantity of oil and needing more and more care to keep the rust at bay and generally felt worn out, so when it broke down for the final time I gave up and decided to scrap it rather than shell out for another repair job.
I decided it was really time I had a van as being so much more practical (with hindsight, absolutely the right decision) and was lucky to find a good one locally - Vauxhall Combo, 2011, but essentially the same vehicle underneath apart from the diesel engine and ABS, and consequently easy to make a comparison.
It was the first vehicle I ever owned with ABS and, although I feel on top of it now, I had some very hairy lack-of-braking moments as I realised that ABS brakes behave VERY differently to non ABS brakes and that I needed to leave much greater margins for safe stopping.
It's all down to personal opinion but it doesn't seem like progress to me at all, and I for one would much rather drive a vehicle without ABS. Unfortunately it's been compulsory for so long now that motors without ABS - never mind one that would suit my needs - are impossibly thin on the ground. |
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