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Head nut torque with solid copper gasket
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peppiB



Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 687
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter scott wrote:
Hey UJ,

I hope you'll change your mind on leaving the forum. You're a great contributor and I'm sure lots of members would miss you.

Peter.


I would second that. I may not post much, but I do read everything. Until ill health forced otherwise, I used my 'amateur' skills for reward until last year(buying clapped out scrap, albeit Morris Minors because that is where my skills are, and restoring it, then selling on at hopefully a profit). I am still a classic car fan and as far as I am concerned the more people, whether keen amateur or receiving reward for their efforts, who keep them on the road the better, and advice from the experience of people like you is invaluable in this. If you decided to leave, many of us would be poorer for it.
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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 21126
Location: North-west UK

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As UJ no longer wishes to take part, his logon id has been de-activated.

Rick.
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Various 1920s-1960s - Austin, Morris, Commer, Dodge etc.
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buzzy bee



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 3397
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pigtin wrote:
I seem to recall having to anneal copper head gaskets and I can confirm that Hylomar is brilliant.


Hi

Remember anealing copper is different to steel, actually the opposite, cool quickly to soften.

Secondly, if it was my car, I would have torqued tot he same original figure, as just because there is a thicker gasket, doesn't alter the torque figures, does it? Maybe I am way off the mark.

Glen, don't take my advice unless you are totally sure, I don't want to be to blame for the wrong doing, hehe

Cheers

Dave
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pigtin



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 1882
Location: Herne Bay

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I first restored my 10/4 I couldn't stop the head gaskets blowing every few miles until I fitted new studs. Don't know why but they were either too elastic or the state of the threads prevented them tightening properly. That was a sidevalve, an ohv may have a less flexible head.

Just a thought Confused Don.
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47p2



Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 2002
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to hear the news of UJ, I do hope he will change his mind and return as he was a popular member of the forum.

Surely it is beter to ask a question if you are unsure, rather than guess the answer and never resolve the problem.

Car dealerships nowadays have a policy that if a local garage mechanic phones them asking advice on a particular problem, they answer as honestly as possible.

Glen was unsure of the answer and asked advice, I applaud him for being big enough to come onto the forum and asking.
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PAUL BEAUMONT



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 1280
Location: Barnsley S. Yorks

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too am sorry to hear of UJ's decision, and in part I agree with his viewpoint. If Glenn was after information that is readily available if, for instance he went out and bought a Haynes Manual, but was too tight to spend the 17.00ish then he would be wrong, but he is asking a question about a rare car, and as Rick says, on an unusual topic. In that case surely he is right, on behalf of the enthusiast owner, to seek advice, and where better than here on the forum. He could have got the owner to join and ask the question!!
Lets help get this Riley back on the road!!
PAUL
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47Jag



Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 1470
Location: Bothwell, Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick,

I agree with you stance on 'professional' posters seeking advice. I subscribe to a couple of other fourums (BMW & Jaguar) and on both of these there are people who are engaged in the auto trade who provide advice but on occasions will come seeking solutions to problems they have. From what I have seen on this forum we have a few pros. (active or retired??) dispensing advice. This is good. As you said no one can know everything about everything so long may it continue.

Art
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Last edited by peter scott on Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buzzy bee wrote:
I would have torqued tot he same original figure, as just because there is a thicker gasket, doesn't alter the torque figures, does it? Maybe I am way off the mark.



I would agree with Dave. I'm sure the torque figures are a safe maximum that avoids stretching the studs or pulling them from the block. Higher torque is not the answer. Efficient sealing must be achieved by some other method. If you don't like Hylomar type products then there are alternative modern gasket materials. I seem to recall the name "Klingerite"

http://www.steamengine.com.au/ic/faq/gaskets.html

If you need to reduce the compression ratio then form a sandwich of steel sheet between two gaskets.

Peter
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Greeney in France



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 1173
Location: Limousin area of France

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use a very high quality product given to me by an American friend whom works on aircraft its called "aviation Form a gasket" NAPA PERMATEX i am not sure how available it is to the public but i would willingly send it out to you as long as you sent it back when finished Rolling Eyes

I am sorry UJ has taken this course he was an active member but I do agree with everyones attitude, this is a friendly place to ask and help with information whatever the reason and lets face it, this turns into a database of information for everones benefit. I hope he chooses to come back and thank you Rick for "nipping it in the bud" I have been on far to many forums that turn into a slanging forum.
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 3501
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a though, but is a solid copper gasket ever going to reliable in this situation;to function gaskets are designed to compress, a solid copper gasket even with the copper annealed will need conciderable more force to compress and "bed" in than the original would have, which I would suspect involves far more torque than the head studs will take?
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buzzy bee



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 3397
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

I think annealed copper would work, as you only need it to seal minute spots normally, think about copper washers they work?

We use to use copper on steam fittings, and they worked on that, I supose they were raked up a little tighter than your car!

Cheers

Dave
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PAUL BEAUMONT



Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 1280
Location: Barnsley S. Yorks

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going back to a very early post on this. I have found my little Britool book that confirms Post war 1.5 Riley used 3/8 head bolts with a recommended torque of 45lbft = 540lbin
The 2.5 used 7/16 bolts hence the higher torque.
PAUL
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Glenn Crawford



Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 68
Location: Dorset, SW England

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Paul, but the real question is do I use the same torque for a solid gasket as for a copper-asbestos one?

The solid copper type is used for historic Riley racing engines, I've since found out. It was fitted to this engine because it has got high-compression pistons and because a standard gasket had blown while the engine was being tuned on a rolling road. The solid gasket had not blown as such, just seepage from combustion chambers to waterways.

The head is now off for inspection and the solid gasket will be annealed. The chap who fits it suspects that the gasket was not adequately annealed to start with, and that may be all that's wrong.
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Jim Walker



Joined: 01 Oct 2008
Posts: 124
Location: Chesterfield, Derbys.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solid copper gaskets have long been used in many engineering applications and particularly on motorbikes. One advantage (though it may be penny-pinching) is that after annealing they may be re-used. However it is age that hardens copper and it will need annealing even if unused, if it is more than a few months old. This also applies to any copper sealing washers fitted.

No one seems to have explained how to anneal copper. The procedure is very simple. Heat the whole item EVENLY to cherry red (not more or it will disintegrate) and then quench very quickly in cold water. The difference in flexibility and softness is amazing. It will also look like new.

As far as torquing down a head, I have always believed that the torque recommended is to prevent head studs or bolts being tightened beyond their elastic limit where they permanently stretch and lose tension. Not to put more or less compression on the gasket. In fact I have a table listing the maximum safe torque for each bolt size and material. The reason for tightening by diagonal selection from the centre is to stop head distortion. Try sticking down a piece of Sellotape, starting at each end. The principle is the same.

After all the fuss above, perhaps I should reveal that I ran a car workshop/garage for many years.

I may be back myself to seek advice although I have plenty of qualifications and been in charge of a Technical College Motor Vehicle Workshop. We all find the need to learn!
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