classic car forum header
Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
How To Register     Posting Photographs     Privacy Policy     F/book facebook.com/oldclassiccar

1926 Dodge Brothers Tourer (split)
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration. Forum Index -> All Other Cars & Vehicles.
Author Message
Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3182
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One year on and I have taken the decision to investigate the engine knock again. I THOUGHT I had found the source of the problem last year when I discovered a blocked oil passageway. A dry bearing could have made a noise but on reassembly the tapping sound persisted.

I removed the head and sump then I removed the piston and rod from the "noisy" No.1 cylinder and took a few measurements. It quickly became apparent that what I had been listening to was "piston slap". What was more alarming was the fact that at a previous engine rebuild (before my time) someone had fitted a set of new pistons that were 0.020" smaller than standard. Unbelievable!

It would seem that the bores have been opened out by 0.010" so combined with the wrong pistons, there was a considerable amount of slop. No wonder it knocked!

Owing to the consequential damage I have decided on a rebore and a new set of pistons (+0.020") to remedy my engine problems once and for all. At the same time, I will replace the valves and guides.

There is quite a lot to do to remove and strip the engine down for the machine shop but before going too far, I checked the con rod of No.1 cylinder for alignment. Not having the professional tool I did what my Dad would have done and prepared a sturdy 10" mandrel and fitted it to the big end then pressed a similar length of rod through the hole in the gudgeon pin. By measuring the distance between the extremities of each mandrel on either side of the con rod any bend should become evident. The measurements were absolutely identical so that shows the rod is not bent sideways as I had feared.

By laying the con rod down on a surface plate and supported on blocks any twist would show up where the smaller mandrel touches - but fortunately none was present. This method does not detect bends in the rotational plane but I have no reason to suspect any given where the piston was hitting the bore.

I will try to remember to post some photos next time. Embarassed [/b]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rick
Site Admin


Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 20826
Location: North-west UK

PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting stuff, if you do get to take a few photos it'd be interesting to see them for reference.

RJ Smile
_________________
Rick (OCC Admin)
Various 1920s-1960s - Austin, Morris, Commer, Dodge etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3182
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't seem to find the URL link on 'photobucket' page to put the photos on here.??
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rick
Site Admin


Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 20826
Location: North-west UK

PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ray, if you PM me a link to the page that they're on, I can take a look.

RJ
_________________
Rick (OCC Admin)
Various 1920s-1960s - Austin, Morris, Commer, Dodge etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3182
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Checking the con rod for true.


Last edited by Ray White on Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:38 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3182
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Progress has been slow but I am nearly ready to get the block rebored. To remove the engine on this car it is necessary to first remove the transmission. To get the gearbox out one must uncouple the torque tube and the best way to do this (believe it or not) is to remove the bolts from the front of the rear axle eyes and pull the rear axle back as far as it will go on the spring shackles.





My car ( like Rick's '24 ) was originally an American export to Australia where it was traditionally bodied. (All the American cars have a "Budd" steel body). Unfortunately, whoever restored my car failed to align the rear spring eyes with the openings in the body provided. This meant that I have had to unbolt the rear springs from the axle, unbolt the rear shackles and lower the springs down to the ground. I was then able to pull the axle back enough for the torque tube to drop out of the transmission. To do this I first had to support the body of the car on axle stands and remove the exhaust and brake rods.




With the prop disconnected, I had to remove the front seat base, carpets, floor boards and disconnect the throttle and advance/retard mechanism; remove battery and box; drain the gearbox and unbolt and remove it's top which holds the hand brake and gear lever; disconnect the speedo and the clutch grease tube; remove the brake and clutch pedals; disconnect electrics; remove the clutch release fork and bearing; remove starter motor and undo the numerous bell housing bolts. Remove the four long 9/16 bolts holding the rear engine support to the chassis.

The gearbox on these cars is supported by a kind of yoke which is bolted to the bell housing and couples as a rear engine support. With a trolly jack under the rear of the engine (sump temporarily reinstated) and with the assistance of another trolly jack, the gearbox - complete with yoke was pulled back from the engine. The chassis side rails progressively get further apart as you go backward and eventually there is enough room for the gearbox/yoke assembly to drop down to the floor.

I had a problem in getting the assembly out from under the car despite having quite large stands so the yoke and gearbox needed to be separated. I had a problem here because someone had damaged two of the bolts but finally the parts were separated and could be dragged out from under the car.



The gearbox shows considerable wear to some parts but not others. The two main bearings need replacement and there is wear to the sliding surfaces of the gears where they move on the square section main shaft but the teeth are not too bad with no chips or pitting. The countershaft and bearings seem to be in good condition. Alarmingly, the large nut on the main shaft was only done up finger tight and some bolts were missing altogether!



With the transmission removed, the clutch could be withdrawn from it's driving pins on the flywheel. The clutch itself seems good but the thrust release (or throw out) bearing has a lot of slop in it. The driving pins have significant grooves worn on into them. I have researched the possibility of replacing the pins and although new ones are available, I have learned that people who have tried to replace them have needed to heat the flywheel considerably and driving the pins out has cause cracking. I am contemplating welding up the grooves and grinding down smooth. Alternatively, I could perhaps simply smooth off any edges and with a little grease the plates should just slide over the grooves.




.

The bushing (visible in the end of the clutch shaft) will need replacing. This is a blind hole and removal can be a pig of a job - similar to removing the pilot bearing in a modern flywheel. You need a snug fitting drift and with some oil in the hole, smartly hit the drift. This may sound counter intuitive but the oil in the hole acts as a hydraulic press to push out the bushing...at least that's the theory!





Perhaps the biggest surprise was finding that the pilot bearing in the middle of the flywheel which seemed so rough running, freed up completely when I worked some oil into it. This had been the problem with gear selection. In the end, as there seemed no means of of lubrication, I pressed out the bearing and replaced it with a sealed one.












Getting onto the engine removal. I needed to remove the radiator and surround and the bonnet. I removed the carb but the vacuum tank had been taken off previously. The water pump, dynamo and distributor came away as one unit as they are driven by one shaft. The fan and the coil had come away with the head previously. The exhaust manifold and heat exchanger had to be removed but I had trouble in undoing the large round nut holding the pipe to the manifold. In the end I had to separate the down pipe from the rest of the exhaust and extract it from the front. With the manifold held in the vice and the 24" Stilson grips aided with heat, the nut eventually loosened. In future I will assemble the exhaust manifold/pipe with "Thread ease".

Back to the engine removal. I had to temporarily replace the head to provide a fastening for the hoist. I am fortunate in having a (vintage and classic car owner) neighbour who was happy to lend me his engine hoist. We loaded it into the back of my Range Rover and gingerly drove along the lane to my house. I bought a "load leveller" which made it much easier to tilt the engine the required 45 degrees. I also bought an engine stand but have yet to use it. With the head nuts tightened and the load leveller taking the strain, the trolly jack and the front engine mount could be removed. The sump was again dropped to allow more clearance and the engine lifted out.






To date I have removed the crankshaft and camshaft. With the cam out of the way it was an easy matter to drift out the old valve guides. Unfortunately the new guides are 0.0025 larger diameter than the ones that came out. This has meant skimming them down in my lathe. I have pulled them in with a 6" bolt and nut on a washer and socket but first centering the guide with a tapered collet.




I had a mishap when the tailstock broke at a previous repair and I spent a long time filing down the broken casting and making a new repair section.







The above photo shows the repaired tailstock saddle with the broken off part next to it.


Last edited by Ray White on Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:38 pm; edited 26 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3182
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To add to my woes, hidden under all the grime and old paint was this crack in the water jacket.



Last edited by Ray White on Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:41 pm; edited 12 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
roverdriver



Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 1142
Location: 100 miles from Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nasty crack that! In the past the simplest solution would be to braze it, but that entailed trying to heat the block consistently and evenly to reduce the risks of distortion.
Nowadays there are cold-working product that will do the job. I have seen some marvelous work done with 'JB Weld' an epoxy that I am sure would solve your problem.

Good luck with it, Dane.
_________________
Dane- roverdriver but not a Viking.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3182
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

roverdriver wrote:
Nasty crack that! In the past the simplest solution would be to braze it, but that entailed trying to heat the block consistently and evenly to reduce the risks of distortion.
Nowadays there are cold-working product that will do the job. I have seen some marvelous work done with 'JB Weld' an epoxy that I am sure would solve your problem.

Good luck with it, Dane.


Thanks Dane. I have ordered some epoxy compound from Belzona called Super Metal 1111 (which is a product used in heavy industry) that I understand is better suited to cast iron engine block repairs than JB Weld - although I have that as well.

I will have to rule out professional welding or stitching on cost grounds but I remember my Dad repairing his 1929 MG M type midget engine block which had a more serious frost crack. In that instance, he drilled and tapped a series of holes in which he threaded brass studding. Further holes were drilled,
tapped and threaded with brass studding in between and overlapping. This way he created a brass seam. I remember him saying the result was so pleasing that it was a shame to over paint it!

As the crack is 6" long, I can't see me going through all that if I can get away with a modern epoxy. Fortunately, there seems to be no other cracks. It has been suggested that rather than cut a simple V or U channel I could get a better result if the channel had an inverted V profile. A hole drilled at each end should prevent the crack from spreading further.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
roverdriver



Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 1142
Location: 100 miles from Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the Super Metal is better than JB, then I am sure that you will get a good result. Interesting about the inverted 'V'. It does make sense, but a good epoxy will stick well onto the cast provided preparation is good.

I had a 1930 Model A Ford on which the previous owner had repaired a crack, that ran down one cylinder's bore, using the technique that you describe. I ran the car for a couple of years (everyday transport), and finally sold it on, and it was still going strong 3 or 4 years later.
_________________
Dane- roverdriver but not a Viking.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3182
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This problem is evolving into quite a learning curve for me. It goes without saying that thousands of people have resorted to different methods of dealing with cracks in engine blocks over the years and the suggestions I have been getting (especially from old timers) are very varied. One which I had not considered but sounds interesting is a soft solder repair. Thinking about it, not too much heat is needed and the repair would tend to expand and contract with the iron rather than rely on extra strong adhesion to hold the crack together. I quite like that idea but whether it would work in practise I couldn't say.

Of course, there are all the quick and easy fixes to stop leakage by adding stuff to the coolant - even egg white has been suggested - but they do all seem to clog up the rad which I don't want to risk and of course, the crack remains an ugly visible scar.

The Yanks love JB Weld and I am sure it works just fine in most cases but I have heard of failures. The problem seems to be adhesion. My research has found that where JB Weld has an adhesion of 6oo psi at 200 deg, my preferred epoxy solution - Belzona Super Metal 1111 - has a vice like grip of 3,200 PSI at the same temp.

Or at least that is the theory.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bitumen Boy



Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1391
Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray White wrote:
This problem is evolving into quite a learning curve for me. It goes without saying that thousands of people have resorted to different methods of dealing with cracks in engine blocks over the years and the suggestions I have been getting (especially from old timers) are very varied. One which I had not considered but sounds interesting is a soft solder repair. Thinking about it, not too much heat is needed and the repair would tend to expand and contract with the iron rather than rely on extra strong adhesion to hold the crack together. I quite like that idea but whether it would work in practise I couldn't say.


The problem with soft solder would, to my mind, be a lack of the cleanliness that is essential to any soft soldering job. It's a fair bet that there's corrosion in that crack and if you enlarge the crack to get it out you'll be left with a gap that soft solder probably won't fill. Chemical treatment may be possible but I suspect wouldn't be very effective
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 3182
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The question of getting the area clean enough for soft solder was also on the mind of an experienced radiator restorer who I have heard from. Even with epoxy you need to treat the area with a degreaser that doesn't leave a residue. With cast iron there is the possibility of oil saturation which could spell disaster.

The only thought I had about using soft solder was in connection with the brass seam stitching that I mentioned earlier. Rather than pounding the studs into submission, a decent seal could be achieved by soldering over the finished brass seam.

Maybe?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
petelang



Joined: 21 May 2009
Posts: 242
Location: Nottingham

PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ray.
I would definitely go for a stitch repair.
See this on YouTube
https://youtu.be/Pq0wfU4ZaKk

I used a chap from Burton on Trent. Stitchweld.co.uk. Not to far from you.
I had to have a block repair splitting at head studs on my Daimler 15. He did a superb job. He runs a mobile service so could come to you. I didn't think it that expensive, compared to finding another block. Worth investigating.
Best regards
Peter
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Rick
Site Admin


Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 20826
Location: North-west UK

PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed, as the engine's out then I'd also look at cold stitching tbh. I went through these "joys" with big Dodge's engine a few years ago. Lockstitch sorted that one for me.

RJ

PS enjoying the updates and photos, handy reference material Smile
_________________
Rick (OCC Admin)
Various 1920s-1960s - Austin, Morris, Commer, Dodge etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration. Forum Index -> All Other Cars & Vehicles. All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 2 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Forum T&C


php BB powered © php BB Grp.