Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[trampintransit]

So...I thought I'd treat the Armstrong Siddeley to a modern geared stater motor. .. Couldnt fine a listing for one but spoke to a company (AES) who supply Wosp starters. Ascertained that it was the same as a DB2 starter. Orederd one...

Fitted, but there didn't seem to be enough throw on the dog to get it spinning properly before it contacted the flywheel....result...one time in three the dog would simply jam up against the fly wheel.

Spoke to AES ( Wosp don't communicate with customers!) and after some to and throw, they suggested a shim betweem the indexable mounting plate and the body of the starter to add a few millimteres of throw to the dog so it can spin up proeperly. They sent said shim..

Didn't work. I even tried shimming the mounting plate out temporarily by a further three millimeteres (!!) and still jammed.

I called AES and they said Wosp wanted the distance from the mounting surface of the bellhousing to the inside face of the flywheel...I sent that...and a week later a new starter motor turns up. They've re-engineered it so that the motor itself is a bit further away from the flywheel, but by less distance overall that when I'd put the shims in!!! The throw and length of the dog remains the same....So I'm thinking ..." This isn't going to work" .. I call AES who say that the starter dog is different ( smaller ) and the angle of the bevel on the collision face is changed.

SO... put starter mtoro on car and presto it works....almost every time ...bugger... no good....on the 1 in 10 operations when it still jams against the flywheel it can only be resolved by ising a screwdriver to slighty rotate the dog and then try again ( Lucky the floor isn't in the car!!)

They suggested putting the shim back in woth the new motor and increase the 'spinup' distance further.

BUT ....here's my real worry ....the dog at full throw is lining up with the flywheel in that the leading edge of both are flush, but the dog looks too small to me. surely , if the teeth are only operating by making contact with the top half of the tooth on the flywheel then sooner or later it'll just bang a tooth of the flywheel?

I'm surprised that Wosp haven't wanted to speak to me about this...they seem to be hining behind AES who are understandably sick of talking to me. Wosp don't seem to be interested in finding an engineering based solution and just seem to want to bodge it...a bodge which I think ios going to leave me with a damged flywheel?

Any thought anyone?
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'60 Armstrong Siddeley Star Sapphire
'80 Reliant Scimitar
'47 Jaguar MKIV --- in bits!!!!

[alastairq]

Hi, my sympathies!

What about transferring the gear & dog from the original starter motor?

[trampintransit]

It's not really manufactured in such a way as to make that possible ... the dog looks to pressed onto the shaft....and I guess I don't want to go mucking about with whilst there's a chance Wosp might still have a solution.. I'm still kinda surprised at their reluctance to speak to me directly. If it was my company I'd be on the phone to the customer by now ....
_________________
'60 Armstrong Siddeley Star Sapphire
'80 Reliant Scimitar
'47 Jaguar MKIV --- in bits!!!!

[47Jag]

Can you post a picture so that we can see what you are talking about. Coes the starter have a shift solenoid on the top? If it has, check that the shift lever pivot pin is an eccentric. On some pre-engaged starters there is an adjustment to increase/decrease the the pinion depth.

Art

[Phil - Nottingham]

Are these pre-engaged then or standard Bendix? Is the flywheel lead in on the correct side?
_________________
Rover P2
Rover P4
Rover P5 & P5B
Land Rover S2 & S3
Morris Mini Traveller Mk2

[trampintransit]

It's the 1.4kw Denso from this page...

http://www.wosperformance.co.uk/products/starter-motors/

The unit I have is the LMS219, they've already sold them for the Sapphire, but the Star Sapphire has a different engine.

Anyway ... I've emailed AES and found an email for Wosp who I've copied in ...let's see if they wanna find a solution?

There's no adjustment anywhere on the motor.

The original is Bendix ...this is a preengaged item
_________________
'60 Armstrong Siddeley Star Sapphire
'80 Reliant Scimitar
'47 Jaguar MKIV --- in bits!!!!

[Phil - Nottingham]

Interesting and also disappointing that they cannot sort this properly. As its a pre-engaged does it operate in the same direction to engage as the Bendix drive on yours as the flywheel teeth must have the lead in to match. Many pre-engaged operate from the other side so there is no lead in which will cause jamming sometimes
_________________
Rover P2
Rover P4
Rover P5 & P5B
Land Rover S2 & S3
Morris Mini Traveller Mk2

[trampintransit]

Damn good point Phil. It never occured to me that the flywheel teeth are cut on the wrong side ... hmmm .... I'm hoping they are going to talk to me tomorrow and see what they have to say?
_________________
'60 Armstrong Siddeley Star Sapphire
'80 Reliant Scimitar
'47 Jaguar MKIV --- in bits!!!!

[trampintransit]

I think Phill may have it .... apparently most flywheel rings have a bevel on both sides of the teeth even though the Bendix engages from the 'rear' side... The armstrong seems to have completely flat faced teeth on the 'front' side... so sooner or later , the dog, despite having a bevel of it's own, will collide, flat face to flat face, and jam. That's my thinking anyway.

I've sent a pic of the front side of the ring to the manufacturer to see what they think
_________________
'60 Armstrong Siddeley Star Sapphire
'80 Reliant Scimitar
'47 Jaguar MKIV --- in bits!!!!

[Phil - Nottingham]

Hope that is it then - most British cars till the mid-60's had only one side lead in - when pre-engaged motors were fitted they were just put on the other way. I suppose this only worked with separate shrunk on rings gears 1 piece ones may have been made dual fit?

If they did not know this and it turns out to be the cause then I am very unimpressed or perhaps I getting old?
_________________
Rover P2
Rover P4
Rover P5 & P5B
Land Rover S2 & S3
Morris Mini Traveller Mk2

[trampintransit]

To be fair...Wosp now seem to be onboard and asking for pictures n stuff in order to find a solution, although, I'm not sure how it can work if the back of the ring AND the dog have flats? Sooner or later they are gonna strick flat to flat and jam.....but anyway...I'll let you know.
_________________
'60 Armstrong Siddeley Star Sapphire
'80 Reliant Scimitar
'47 Jaguar MKIV --- in bits!!!!

[Phil - Nottingham]

Both dog and ring gear should have lead ins on inertia and Pre-engaged
_________________
Rover P2
Rover P4
Rover P5 & P5B
Land Rover S2 & S3
Morris Mini Traveller Mk2

[trampintransit]

Well, wxactly ... but the 'back' side of my ring gear has no lead in...which I would have thought would make jamming inevitable....Wosp say they've manufactured plenty of starters that work on a ring gear with no lead in ....BUT...

Starter number THREE arrived yesterday...and it doesn't work at all....

It just bangs the pinion into the back of the ring gear and jams, despite this one having what they call a 'very aggresive cut' ....

They still won't communicate with me directly..it's realy frustrating.
_________________
'60 Armstrong Siddeley Star Sapphire
'80 Reliant Scimitar
'47 Jaguar MKIV --- in bits!!!!

[Phil - Nottingham]

This is very disappointing as most British cars apart from top end have inertia starters - all 6 of ours have them and only the Rover P5B (from 1967) has a PE. Minis etc did not get PE ones till the mid 80's and even Metros had inertias at the start.

My Auto Union DKW's from the 1950's had Bosch PE's however.

The only way round is to fit another shrunk on ring gear with the lead in on the other side if still obtainable or it's not cut directly onto the flywheel.

Of course continued use with no lead in may wear a lead-in on yours as engines do mainly stop in the same position. It will wear the pinion on the motor and its bearing too.

It's not really fit for purpose and should not be sold as substitute for inertia motors unless the ring gear has a double lead in as lot did from the late 70's
_________________
Rover P2
Rover P4
Rover P5 & P5B
Land Rover S2 & S3
Morris Mini Traveller Mk2

[Bitumen Boy]

Is there any reason why one of these modern geared starters couldn't be made with a traditional inertia drive? Or, of course, if there was nothing wrong with the original starter...