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Riley 12/4 1935
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Whitegoatie



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Stamford, Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter scott wrote:
I saw reference to your disaster else where and will be interested to see how you solved it.

As an aside, do you still have your father's green Kestrel?

Peter



No, a brother had the green one and sold it. But the new owner/custodian got in touch with me recently.

The latest disaster on this thread is a different disaster to the one on the Facebook group, although they are related.

There have been a couple of disasters along the way which I will get to soon, although the latest (real time) is more a 'state of emergency' than a simple disaster...

[img]IMG_7921 by Jeremy Ball, on Flickr[/img]
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6137
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good grief! You ran over Freddie Dixon's Riley?

Peter Shocked Wink
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Whitegoatie



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Stamford, Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cracking on at a pace, painted, panels and trim back on, getting there with the electrics, coolant level not dropped for weeks, best just check it again...

Another sump full of water. Can't work it out, you fill her up, run it up to temp, perfect, run it up the next day, still perfect, check it every day for 10 days, water level not moved, next day its in the sump.

Head off again, recheck everything. All I can do is suspect a possible hair line crack in the block. I clean the faces and rebuild using a copper gasket painted with Wellseal. The house is sold, so I don't have time to drop the sump or pull the engine for a better look. I fill her up, and sure enough she loses coolant. With nothing to lose, in go 2 cans of Radweld. Over the next couple of days I keep running her till hot, checking oil, checking coolant.

While I'm monitoring the coolant issue I tackle the wiring. I had earlier in the rebuild tackled the dash, ignition and start circuits, now it was time for the lighting. The regulator/fuse box has been temporarily cable tied to a radiator stay to keep it out of the way until I have made all the connections to the back of it.

I had the headlamp bowls chrome plated, I think originally they would have been painted, but they are so big they were just crying out for some bling.

[img]IMG_8696 by Jeremy Ball, on Flickr[/img]

Wiring the headlights was the first headache. Originally it had a solenoid in each lamp which physically moved the bulb between dip and main beam. I didn't have solenoids or linkages. I chose to wire in a simple relay, which feeds the dip filament, then when energised, switches the feed to the main filament. I was quite pleased with the way this worked, although I have never driven in the dark to be able to comment on the effectiveness of the lamps.

Front and rear side lights were straight forward, as were the brake lights.

From new the car would have had semaphores mounted in the B post on the Kestrel, or what I think are fairly ugly/odd looking units mounted on the sides of the Lynx scuttle. Even if I wanted them, I didn't have any so had to look at the options. The front end was a no brainer, I used the after market unit that fits into the wing mounted Lucas side lights, giving a side light bulb and amber indicator. At the rear, rightly or wrongly, I opted for flashing brake lights. I obtained the control unit for this and wired it up, and so far so good.

[img]IMG_8769 by Jeremy Ball, on Flickr[/img]

I hadn't completed the wiring when we had our maiden voyage to new premises, the house had sold, we had to go. I had never driven a pre-selector, the engine wasn't properly tuned, would it make it? Luckily the new location for the car was not too far away, and we got there without incident, apart from the engine popping and farting under protest, it was pretty nerve wracking.

And the Radweld seemed to have done the trick, oil clear, coolant level good.

Once I was established in the new garage, small, dark, no power, the garage not me... I carried on with wiring. Queue the next disaster. The control box was dangling, not very securely from a piece of bent welding wire. While working at the back of the car, I happened to look up and see clouds of smoke pouring from the engine bay. I isolated the battery and legged it to the front, there were no flames, luckily I had fitted an isolator switch and spotted the problem quickly. But, the damage had been done, wiring, mostly between the regulator, dash and starter had melted.

[img]IMG_8769 by Jeremy Ball, on Flickr[/img]

The purple and white suffered most and took out several others.

Nothing for it but to rip it all out and start over.

[img]IMG_8811 by Jeremy Ball, on Flickr[/img]

Hard to be tidy when you are wiring...

[img]IMG_8834 by Jeremy Ball, on Flickr[/img]

But we got there.

[img]IMG_8835 by Jeremy Ball, on Flickr[/img]
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petelang



Joined: 21 May 2009
Posts: 242
Location: Nottingham

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With regards to your coolant loss problem, one item to check may be coolant creeping up past head studs from the block. I experienced something similar with a Daimler engine we had rebuilt and had the block reached. Consequently, all studs were removed and scrupulously cleaned on the threads and put back dry.. It showed no sign of loss when warm but after two days stood, the coolant appeared in the sump. I stood over it with a lamp into the cold hours of the night to witness a tiny growing blob of coolant emerge around a head stud nut, then make its way as a tiny trickle across the top of the head and down the rocker pushrod hole.
Removing each head stud and sealing the threads with studlock solved it permanently.
Also, look for and core plugs on top face of the head.
Peter
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Whitegoatie



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Stamford, Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

petelang wrote:
With regards to your coolant loss problem, one item to check may be coolant creeping up past head studs from the block. I experienced something similar with a Daimler engine we had rebuilt and had the block reached. Consequently, all studs were removed and scrupulously cleaned on the threads and put back dry.. It showed no sign of loss when warm but after two days stood, the coolant appeared in the sump. I stood over it with a lamp into the cold hours of the night to witness a tiny growing blob of coolant emerge around a head stud nut, then make its way as a tiny trickle across the top of the head and down the rocker pushrod hole.
Removing each head stud and sealing the threads with studlock solved it permanently.
Also, look for and core plugs on top face of the head.
Peter


Thank you. Its worse than that, much worse, will get to it soon...
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Whitegoatie



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Stamford, Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As soon as the car started to look like a car again, I started the process of applying for a V5. When the car left the factory it carried the registration CPU 1, for reasons unknown this was transferred/sold in 1972, and re-registered ANO 296A. A quick Google showed that the original Reg now resides on a Silver Mercedes and that 1 CPU could be purchased from a numbers dealer for anywhere between 125k and 250k depending on which website you visited, no thanks...

The Riley Register were very helpful when it came to the application for the V5 and authenticating the vehicle, chassis and engine numbers matched, the only slight worry was the change of body from saloon to tourer. A couple of letters to the DVLA plus some photos and ANO 296A was reissued, I got my V5 with the number on a 'Non-transferable' basis.

Registered, Licenced, insured, number plates attached, we went for a drive, first stop fuel.

[img]IMG_8902 by Jeremy Ball, on Flickr[/img]

[img]IMG_8903 by Jeremy Ball, on Flickr[/img]

[img]IMG_8903 by Jeremy Ball, on Flickr[/img]

[img]IMG_8899 by Jeremy Ball, on Flickr[/img]

I was feeling quite pleased with myself as I pumped in the gas, 9 months and from a box of bits she was firmly back on the road! Jumped back in, waved to the attendant, smiled at the other motorists on the forecourt, hit the start button, she cranked but would not fire. Tried again, nothing, 'want a push mate?', 'no, you're ok thanks'. I was there half an hour, it was the coil causing the problem, as soon as it cooled down she sparked up again and ran like a dream. I swapped the coil and she has started reliably ever since.

I subsequently bought a dateless plate for not much money, which also has a personal meaning and applied this to the vehicle.

https://youtu.be/QcNwGNQ4AYY

A ride in the country...

https://youtu.be/co40pxe2eos

The car was basically complete, lots jobs done that I haven't described, either no images or forgotten lots of the detail. Rebuilding the windscreen surround, setting up the gear selector, adjusting the brakes, building the exhaust, tuning and balancing the carbs, fitting handles and latches being just a few. Plus there is still a lot to do, I don't have an interior, so as its a 'replica' of a Lynx I am still deciding whether to try and create a replica Lynx interior, or go for a simple stripped down look with minimal door cards, rear seat and flooring. The dash needs some more sorting, I need a clock and want to fit a tacho. It also needs a tonneau cover and possibly a hood.

But the car was safe in the lock up, work on it stopped for a few months, I took it out for the odd spin round the block and tinkered with it, avoiding getting stuck into anything more serious, mainly because a lock up with out power is not the ideal work shop.

I had promised myself that I would take it to the Stamford Car Show in August this year, Dad took his car there every year without fail, and I thought it fitting to take this one along.

I had clocked up a mere 100 miles since the previous October. The day before the show I brought the car home and gave it a wash and a chammy, then left it on the drive ready for the morning.

After her first night under the stars, she started, but chucked out a cloud of white smoke, odd. Its probably less than a mile from my house to the Stamford Meadows, on the drive she smoked again, and in the queue, to get in. I parked her up, and had to leave her to her own devices as we had visitors that day. When I picked her up she had lost a couple of pints of water so I topped her up and took her back to the lock up.


The old problem was back, another sump full of water...
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Whitegoatie



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Stamford, Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another sump full of water. Cracked head, cracked block? Ever hopeful I removed the head and took it to Mal at M&G Castings and he pressure tested it.

Try and get out of that grip without moving!

[img]IMG_0512 by Jeremy Ball, on Flickr[/img]

It passed muster. Is that good or bad? Heads ok, good, not found the leak, bad.

I pulled the sump off the engine, not much to see looking up into the block. I bunged up the bottom hose and using a jug, filled the water jacket with water. Looking up into the block I could see that water was dripping into the crankcase from somewhere between cylinders 2 and 3. There was nothing for it other than to pull the engine and strip it for a better inspection. I called in a mate who had an engine hoist and pulled the engine out and took it back to my house where I stripped the block.

And there we have it, the hole, in a small sump, right under where the corroded to death hot spot tubes passed through the block.

[img]IMG_0574 by Jeremy Ball, on Flickr[/img]

Not a great image, the small flash of red in the bottom of the waterway is the back of my garage.

This is how it looked after cleaning it up a bit, this time from the crankcase side.

[img]IMG_0621 by Jeremy Ball, on Flickr[/img]

What to do next. I called Mal out to have a look, he condemned it. Mal stitch repairs castings, he said he might be able to do it, but would have to cut out the side of the engine block to access the damaged area. He could not guarantee success and it would cost about 1500.00, I appreciated his honesty. I approached a cast welding specialist, who said he could repair it, again it would cost about 1500.00, and I would also have to have it rebored as they put the block in an oven and it would distort he bores. So add a rebore, a set of pistons and rings and you are looking at 2k to repair.

Apart from the leak, the engine ran well. Lots of things lead me to believe the engine had been rebuilt not long before being parked up over 30 years ago. A bead of Red Hermitite around the timing case, no carbon on the piston tops, the crankcase being free of gunge, good white metal on the big ends. Apart from a hole I can poke my little finger through, I can see no reason to scrap it.

12/4 engines do come up for sale from time to time, for what I call a lot of money. I found a block advertised that was a patchwork of welds and had been bored, for more than the cost of repairing my block.

I stood back and had a think. I decided to repair it myself. Its a bit of a bodge, but what have I got to loose, at worst another sump full of water and my time.

I cleaned the crankcase and water jacket of oil and debris, and using a nut, bolt, washers and fibre washers plugged the hole.

This is looking through the hot spot tube holes.

[img]IMG_0624 by Jeremy Ball, on Flickr[/img]

And this is looking into the crankcase.

[img]Bodge by Jeremy Ball, on Flickr[/img]

I have since sealed both sides of the repair with JB Weld, filled the water jacket and left it for an extended period. There were no signs of leaks. Of course getting it hot will be the real test, but as its a non pressurised system, I hold am hoping it will be successful.

What is truly amazing is that a can of Radweld sealed the hole for 100 miles!

Here's what came out of the waterjacket.

[img]Radweld by Jeremy Ball, on Flickr[/img]

And thats where we are today. The engine is in the garage awaiting rebuild, which won't happen until the new year as I can't walk a the moment! As soon as shes a runner, I will update the thread.

Thanks for looking.
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1263
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, that looks like 'good news'?

I once owned a Morgan 4/4 series one 4 seater...1939...only the 3rd one made...with a Standard Special engine [what a load of old tat?}...

The engine was shot, 5 times over...but, still ran..and would still deliver 70 mph! {I guess the car was so light it didn't need all the 30-odd BHP to get it there?}..
Anyhow, those cylinder heads were known to crack...they all did, apparently....[to the extent, the owner's club [in the US of A] had got some new heads cast, with modern mods too....their success..or, lack of, is another story entirely]......mine was no different.

Every 'fix' was different too.....mine had a metal plate, held down by a bolt from a bridge between rocker shaft studs...pressing down on the crack, with a large pad of gasket material [darned thick cornflake boxes in those days??]....I declined to change the system..it worked, no water in the oil, or vice versa....it was a pity the camshaft had 3 different bearing diameters! A 'new' head would have cost me well over a grand..more like 2 grand....and with the engine machining, pistons etc [all the rings were in 16 pieces..I don't know how it held compression, but it did].....coming to around 800 quid as it stood [those were the days....early turn-of-this-century prices]....ended up having to part with it...finances weren't that good all of a sudden!

No wonder the sage advice from a UK expert in these cars was....pull the engine, store it away, and fit a BMC A -series instead.....more power, more reliable...and the clutch was exactly the same as well!

No problem fitting the clutch housing.....the gearbox was 'separate'...by a good couple of feet!

The gearbox was a Moss device...what I called a 'booger' gearbox....what I would be hear do mutter when I forgot, and tried to pull away from roundabouts in 3rd instead of 1st! The gate was 'back-to-front'!

Never did do that swap, despite having a 1275 Marina engine in my shed.

Sorry thread drift yet again....
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6137
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you say the cooling system in not pressurised so that does look like a viable repair. I went through similar trauma a few years back.
http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk/new%20page%2015.htm

Peter
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Whitegoatie



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Stamford, Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter scott wrote:
As you say the cooling system in not pressurised so that does look like a viable repair. I went through similar trauma a few years back.
http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk/new%20page%2015.htm

Peter


Nice pictures, great write up. Have you ever looked to see if that cracked block could be stitched?

I am looking for information about the BBC during the war so have sent you a PM.
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6137
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whitegoatie wrote:
Have you ever looked to see if that cracked block could be stitched?


I haven't. It would be great to think that it could be stitched but I just felt that the combination of liners and stud inserts and cracks in the top deck were a very poisonous mix. I guess if I had not had another block that I could use then I would pursue the cracked one.

Peter


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JC T ONE



Joined: 30 Oct 2008
Posts: 1113
Location: Denmark

PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading this thread makes me belive there is hope for my engine.

I am sure the fix with the bolt will hold up.

These radiator/block sealers work well.


Jens Christian
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Whitegoatie



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Stamford, Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sitting in the sun on Stamford Meadows.

[img]IMG_0405 by Jeremy Ball, on Flickr[/img]
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Whitegoatie



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Stamford, Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not updated for a while. Work on the engine resumed in February, it went back together ok, the centrifugal clutch was a bit of a pain to get right, but I got there in the end. Its been back on the road for a couple of months and I am tweaking and fettling as I run it. I have used a ceramic sealer in the coolant, I have drained the system and left it to cure for a couple of weeks, this weekend I am going to refill the engine with blue coolant and give it a run. I also have a pattern Bosch 009 distributor which I hope to fit soon.

Turning my thoughts to sorting out the interior now, but thinking most of this work will start in the autumn...

The car is booked in for the Stamford Car Show on the 26th August, Bank Holiday weekend, if you are there please be sure to say hello..

[img]Untitled by Jeremy Ball, on Flickr[/img]

[img]Untitled by Jeremy Ball, on Flickr[/img]
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Rootes75



Joined: 30 Apr 2013
Posts: 2746
Location: The Somerset Levels

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks superb.
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