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Report on road charges
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1310
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:46 pm    Post subject: Report on road charges Reply with quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42792813

I noted a lot of frothing in the comments section....by motorists who don't want to pay any more than they do now.

I have no interest in urban charges, or city taxes..I avoid cities like the plague....they unfortunately get filled with people!

What did interest me was the suggestion that road charging, [if targeted to certain types of road]....would mean those who drive because they have to...work, etc commuting, etc.....thus creating more wear & tear..and making greater demands upon the State to improve infrastructure.....thus ought to 'pay' more..[but, given the existing taxation methods for driving will produce less & less revenue as fuel efficiency and VED go to almost zero.....]......and those who chose to use byways and back roads, pay less [or, nothing?]....especially as these roads are by nature, less well maintained?

It's the latter that interests me.

Most of my essential, day-to-day driving involves back roads, and limited mileage...yet I pay just as much as someone who pounds the motorways all day from one end to the other.

Hardly fair, as I feel I'm subsidising others too much.

But..the main point I see is..if such a road charging [based upon usage, rather than fuel ].....came into being, a whole new world of using tech to find routes which avoid all road charges, to get from A to B, could appear.
driving would suddenly [and forcibly?} become more enjoyable again....as we [I presume most on here, being old car enthusiasts, driving not just looking at?]...get around as cheaply as possible?
Leaving major routes, motorways, etc, to the hurly burly world [and they're welcome to it!]....
Getting from A to B would become, once more, a 'journey', rather than simply 'getting there'....something I find most depressing about today's driving.

Nobody seems to 'travel hopefully' any more. Sad
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Penman



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4150
Location: Lancashire

PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
You could go out and find all those brown or white roads on your OS maps.
I often do it, even on my sat nav, when I divert of the M'ways because of advanced warning about long holdups.
The more obvious A rd diversions get clogged up too easily by others diverting off the M'way.
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MikeEdwards



Joined: 25 May 2011
Posts: 1896
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It used to be possible on sat-navs to select preferences for the type of road you use, and set motorways to be last resorts. Sadly in the quest to make these things easier to use, a lot of functionality has been removed.
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alanb



Joined: 10 Sep 2012
Posts: 433
Location: Berkshire.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was working and traveling up to 30,000 miles a year I used motorways most of the time,getting from A to B as quickly as possible with least hassle regardless of the mileage. Now I am retired weather driving my modern Mercedes or my 37 Morris I try to avoid motorways and busy A roads and larger towns, planning my route using B roads and country lanes where possible. It may mean slightly longer travel time but often less mileage and the journey is much more interesting and pleasant. I have become much more interested in how much fuel I save than how much time saved.
I believe the only fair way to pay for road use is through fuel charges, those who use most fuel pay most, be it by high mileage or uneconomical vehicles, those using the most economical vehicles or traveling fewer miles pay less.
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Clactonguy



Joined: 20 Mar 2018
Posts: 65
Location: clacton on sea

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:52 pm    Post subject: charges? Reply with quote

although it may seem fair to pay for fuel used and distance traveled. for those with deep pockets this is easy option.
those with older large engine cars will have to sell or reduce usage a lot. possibly a fairer way is as we have now a combination of tax and fuel charges . bear in mind those then moving to electric power? or gas etc. will probably have funds and ability to reduce or avoid high taxation and fuel costs.
bottom line is tax paid at moment far exceeds that paid out for infrastructure of UK roads. rest is used by treasury as it sees fit.
I think for historic and classic cars a general limit on mileage /tax can be set eg first 3000 miles free. next 3000 a road tax to be paid set at what is reasonable rate for size of car and emissions.
other vehicles of modern times to have. different rates! thus electric to have to pay tax too.after all they DO run on roads! possibly a black box may need to eb fitted to all cars so. correct use /mileage can be derived. with loss of car and. personal liberty if found to be bypassing the recording device.
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mikeC



Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Posts: 1555
Location: Market Warsop, Nottinghamshire

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:19 am    Post subject: Re: charges? Reply with quote

Clactonguy wrote:
... thus electric to have to pay tax too.after all they DO run on roads! ...


... and they use fossil fuels and create pollution, even if it is far away at the power station!
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1310
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I admit to favouring road charging, rather than fuel charges. Fuel charges can lead to inequalities. [Why pay road charges to fill up one's lawn mower, for example?]

Road charging can be done quite easily..using ANPR....which is in situ all over the place anyway.

Even barcodes can be read from some distance away....so a barcode instead of a tax disc, perhaps?

Then those of us able to get around using back roads, etc, can enjoy savings in life's expenditures.
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 3503
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alastairq wrote:

Then those of us able to get around using back roads, etc, can enjoy savings in life's expenditures.
So who funds the upkeep of back roads? "I'm all right Jack because someone else is paying"?

Non of us like tax's, however we dislike tax avoider's even more. With out being incredibly complicated no tax system will never be 100% fair, put the tax on fuel because that defectively tax's both usage and emissions and yes we will pay a bit more for the odd gallon bought for the lawn mower, but its insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Dave
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1310
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So who funds the upkeep of back roads? "I'm all right Jack because someone else is paying"?


Mostly, around here, via Council tax...which I pay.[yet see little in return].
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alanb



Joined: 10 Sep 2012
Posts: 433
Location: Berkshire.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:50 pm    Post subject: Re: charges? Reply with quote

Clactonguy wrote:

those with older large engine cars will have to sell or reduce usage a lot.

without wishing to sound unkind or smug, surely if you have a large car that you can't afford to run the the answer is to swap it for something something smaller and more economical that you can afford to run , not expect someone else who has a smaller more economical car to subsidise it.
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old tourer


Morris 8 two seater
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1310
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would be a tax too far.....Nearly all those old cars [with large engines] were built & sold in a time when fuel prices were more acceptable. Most would have been looked after by more recent owners, on the basis that reduced usage may well be affordable.

Increased fuel duties adversely impact [penalises] those with older larger motors......modern vehicle' 'fuel consumptions mean their drivers would pay a disproportionately smaller contribution towards roads upkeep.

This method of increasing taxation has been looked at before, but increasing the fuel prices really does more harm to the economy as a whole.

I can only assume those who are against road charging, are those who would be more adversely affected..high mileage, modern vehicle drivers. IE those who really should be 'footing the bill'
Then, having the benefits of modern technologies that create better fuel economy, won't penalise those with old gas guzzlers who will do incredibly small mileages by comparison.

Or would folk rather see the likes of me returning to the workplace environment [doing a younger person out of a job in the process?] just to fund occasional runs out in my ancient gas guzzler...which would be relegated to the position of 'museum piece', by increased costs of fuels?
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 3503
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alastairq wrote:
That would be a tax too far.....Nearly all those old cars [with large engines] were built & sold in a time when fuel prices were more acceptable. Most would have been looked after by more recent owners, on the basis that reduced usage may well be affordable.

Increased fuel duties adversely impact [penalises] those with older larger motors......modern vehicle' 'fuel consumptions mean their drivers would pay a disproportionately smaller contribution towards roads upkeep.

This method of increasing taxation has been looked at before, but increasing the fuel prices really does more harm to the economy as a whole.

I can only assume those who are against road charging, are those who would be more adversely affected..high mileage, modern vehicle drivers. IE those who really should be 'footing the bill'
Then, having the benefits of modern technologies that create better fuel economy, won't penalise those with old gas guzzlers who will do incredibly small mileages by comparison.

Or would folk rather see the likes of me returning to the workplace environment [doing a younger person out of a job in the process?] just to fund occasional runs out in my ancient gas guzzler...which would be relegated to the position of 'museum piece', by increased costs of fuels?
Well as long as the retired folk with their final salary pension and no mortgage, are ok,.....lets penalise the young folk, who have to commute to earn a decent wage and might not be on the housing ladder because house prices have increased massively and a decent pension is only something they can dream of......
Most classics cover less than 1000 miles a year, so increases in fuel prices will be negligible...

Dave
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alanb



Joined: 10 Sep 2012
Posts: 433
Location: Berkshire.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not all pensioners are rich or get final salary pensions, having paid in for 18 years (400 a month in the final year) into a personal portable pension, thanks to Mr Brown and the stock market crash I now receive less than a quarter of my contributions as a pension. Even without a mortgage I still have to maintain the property and support my hobby and wife on a lot less than the minimum wage.
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old tourer


Morris 8 two seater
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 3503
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alanb wrote:
Not all pensioners are rich or get final salary pensions, having paid in for 18 years (400 a month in the final year) into a personal portable pension, thanks to Mr Brown and the stock market crash I now receive less than a quarter of my contributions as a pension. Even without a mortgage I still have to maintain the property and support my hobby and wife on a lot less than the minimum wage.

Agree, but typically gen x and earlier will have gotten on the housing ladder at a younger age and will be more prosperous than millennium's.

Dave
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Peter_L



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2355
Location: New Brunswick. Canada.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Contentious ? Yes. 1 Tax per person, % of income.

After all, have/does those who are unfortunate and use the health system more than others have to pay more than those who may have visited a hospital/doctor very little.

1 tax less admin, I know that means less jobs, so less income tax etc.

For every solution there is aways a problem.

It does seem that we (the world) have a habit of introducing more and more areas of taxation. The modern world didn't arrive here via a preconceived plan.
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