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Steering box issues - 26 Rover 9/20
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jp928



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 247
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:23 am    Post subject: Steering box issues - 26 Rover 9/20 Reply with quote

Picked this car up from an estate in 2016. Everything pretty much overhauled in the early 90s. Initially I couldnt get the steering wheel to fit on properly without it rubbing on the finisher at the top of the outer tube, but found that the lower end of the tube was not fully home in the box - loosened a pinch bolt at the box, persauded the tube a bit deeper into the box, everything now fits preoperly. Wheels in the air, there is ~ 1" of free play at the wheel before things move down below, but there is a fair bit of load involved - 1 finger lock-to-lock is possible, but its not trivial. On the ground (tyres at spec pressures) the load is horrendous unless you are doing at least walking pace, or a bit more.
The box is shown in the attached doc (P2, centre, poor quality, but if you have seen one, you should recognize it) . The doc describes the plate that holds the sector shaft as eccentric to allow adjustment of worm and sector mesh - does anybody have any knowledge of these boxes and might advise how they work, set up info, known issues etc please?
https://imgur.com/FZw00l1
thanks
jp
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Penman



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 4080
Location: Lancashire

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
My service provider won't let me access imgur because of security issues, BUT, wiki tells me that the Rover 9 has
Quote:
Steering was by rack and pinion, worm and segment in the more expensive cars


R&P or W&S would surely have adjustment screws or shims.
I can't help wondering if it has been adjusted too tight.
If the steering wheel is about 14" then 1" of movement is around 8 degs.
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6126
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some photos of the box might help to identify it. The article is not good.

Peter
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jp928



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 247
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The box is worm and sector. The adjustment, as already said, is the cover that carries the sector shaft apparently has the shaft off centre, and the plate has many holes around it(bolted into 4 holes) so you can change the sector/worm mesh depth. If I cant add a jpg to a post here, I need to use ANOTHER image hosting site ? Is there one that will work here?
thanks
john
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6126
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John,

I know that postimage tripped us all up by changing their addressing recently but it is very easy to sign up to and post your .jpgs.

Try reducing the sector penetration even if it does give you more slack on the steering. It will be interesting to know if the effort is reduced.

Peter
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jp928



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 247
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was my plan, but I dont know which way to move the cover to achieve that, hence my search for info on this model. I have a logon with photobucket, and they seem to have dropped their ban on external links resolving - do you know if that will work here ?
thanks
jp
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Farmer John



Joined: 18 Feb 2010
Posts: 167
Location: Manawatu NZ

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:29 pm    Post subject: Rover stg box Reply with quote

Hello JP. I am having trouble deciding where to start so here is what I would do.
With the car jacked up under the axle measure the resistance to rotation of the steering wheel by using a spring balance tied to the steering wheel rim. Then remove the drag link ball joint from the drop arm (pitman arm) and take another reading. Two reasons, firstly you can measure any changes you make, secondly some other Rover owner might check his car for you to compare.
With the car on the ground it should be possible to grab a front wheel and haul the steering around with the drag link still disconnected.
To be honest I would also calculate the overall steering ratio and clamp an appropriate lever to a front wheel to replicate the leverage at the steering wheel rim. This might seem like a lot of trouble but it will indicate whether the problem is the steering box or the rest of the system or both.
I think you have decided on the box? Just for fun slide the column tube out to where it was in case moving it into the box has changed something. Check that the drop arm is not tight against the box housing.
( One important note here. If the column is clamped at the dash it is imperative that no stress is applied to get it to the clamped position. If forced into place the shaft will be constantly bending as it turns and will eventually break.)
Every ball joint and kingpin in the rest of the system is capable of causing you trouble. Every part is designed to be lubricated regularly, if they run out of lube they will seize up. Even kingpins in daily use will seize if run dry. The drag link is off so that is easy to try. Remove the centre tie rod to be sure it is ok. If that is off it is simply a matter of jacking each front wheel and "steering" it. Even if it is perfectly free that does not discount the thrust washer. There might even be a thrust bearing which is normally lovely until it seizes and then it is worse. Somehow the thrust needs testing under load, you could use two flat plates with grease between, let the wheel down and try "steering" the wheel. I have, amongst my grease guns and things, a hand grease pump (out of some Morris tool kit) filled with HD90. I used it every few lube times on all grease fittings it would show whether grease was getting to the lower kingpin bush and therefore the thrust bearing.
The thrust bearing or washer is under the axle eye.
The only other check is oil in the steering box which should have been at the start, after that remove and dismantle. If you could get a workshop service manual it would make the job quicker but it is quite doable without. Take lots of photos.
Look forward to seeing how you get on.

John
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jp928



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 247
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,
I have planned to do most of the things you suggest. With wheels in the air I can rock the front wheels through the box slack quite readily, gradually moving the steering wheel quite a lot, so I dont think the king pins or ball joints by themselves are a problem. Greasing every nipple I could find was one of the first things I did. The steering box has lots of oil in it. The box is mounted via a horizontal bolt through the frame, and the whole box & column pivots on this bolt, so the mounting to the dash does not load the column at all. Next will remove the steering wheel (or at least loosen its nut so its not loading the shaft) and check. Then remove the pitman arm from the first drag link and check. I do have a spring balance, so checking for load at steering wheel is easy. I will try to get a good pic of the box and post it here asap. I am still praying that somebody who has some experience or info on these boxes will come across this thread. better picture below:-
https://imgur.com/zeFYGdw

Update - wheel is around 15" OD. Spring balance load (wheels in the air) on steering wheel is ~3.5Kg=7.7lbs. Load in the box slack area is negligible, so I dont think there is any shaft binding, or bearing binding. Pretty much only leaves worm->sector mesh issues ?
thanks
jp
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6126
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John,

Even though you don't know which way to rotate the plate for less penetration just try it one way or the other and it will become obvious which is the correct way.

There is probably also an end float adjustment that might also have been set too tight. I suspect this might be adjusted by applying or removing shims from the cover on the end of the box. In order to slacken it you would need to add a shim but given that you probably don't have any extras just try slackening the the four nuts that retain the end cover and see whether this gives lighter steering wheel operation. If it does then it's worth making another shim.

Peter
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jp928



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 247
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once I test the load with the box disconnected ftom the drag link, the adjuster plate is next, as yoou said. Just hope I can avoid all the oil & grease falling all over me. I thought about the end bearing, but the fact that there is no discernable load in the free play rotation - where the shaft is turning in the end bearing - militates against that. I will try slackening off the end cap bolts and see if anything changes though. There was no sign of change when I removed the retaining bolt, and no sign the steering wheel boss is touching the outer column tube.
thanks
jp


Last edited by jp928 on Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could probably make the penetration change without loss of oil. Just take the screws out and rotate the plate. You will probably find it easy to turn is one direction and hard in the other. Clearly you want one hole shift in the easy direction.

The screws are not tapped into the oil chamber.

Peter
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jp928



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 247
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Real progress, quickly! Disconnected the drag link from the steering arm , made easy with ball joint taper separating tool. Steering box - loose as a goose, smooth! Wheels on kingpins - not loose, but smooth and even. Whats going on here? Then I noticed that as I pivotted the wheels, the disconnected drag link, still connected to the left wheel, was staying high, and moving with its wheel. Over to the left - drag link ball joint is STIFF AS! This is going to be relatively trivial to fix compared to a steering box problem! Excellent. Problem now, with the link off the car, I cant yet get the screwed in plug capturing the ball to turn at all, via its slot. Soaking in loosening up stuff - 50/50 ATF and acetone. Lets see what a few hours of that will do.
Finally moving along somewhat.
Update - re-assembled, load at steering wheel now down to ! 1kg/2.2lbs, much nicer, free play less noticeable, big improvement. Have also been advised to up the tyre pressures, from spec of 25/27 to 50psi!
Lets see how it steers before we try that.
Tightening up the clutch next - very light pedal, and slipped when I was trying to drive it back into our driveway.
jp
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1253
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the absence of little boxes to tick approval...that is all good news, well done.

Excellent progress..yes, I do follow your thread of issues. Smile
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falconriley



Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 16
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably 32psi would be a good place to start, and maybe as much 36 if you wish to try more. 50 is too much.
Matthew
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jp928



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 247
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I plan to try with stock pressures at first, for a few yards anyway, before going up.
Mate of mine was once given a new company utility. Rides a bit hard he thought, but it wasnt until he had to stop sharply and locked up all 4 that he investigated. All 4 wheels were on 50psi as dlivered, to stop the tyres forming flats in transit (from Brazil!). Should have been lowered to 30 something at delivery prep.
jp 26 Rover 9
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