classic car forum header
Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
How To Register     Posting Photographs     Privacy Policy     F/book facebook.com/oldclassiccar

Body snatchers
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration. Forum Index -> Classic & Vintage Cars, Lorries, Vans, Motorcycles etc - General Chat
Author Message
Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 4001
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:03 pm    Post subject: Body snatchers Reply with quote




https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bentley-Mark-VI/174415096146?hash=item289bf32952:g:hQ4AAOSwaaZfTBAd

It is a sad fact but there are still people prepared to sacrifice a perfectly sound Mk V1 Bentley on the altar of special building. I don't have a problem with Bentley specials and wouldn't mind having a drive in one; they look like good fun. The difficulty for me is seeing a fine saloon body like this one being separated from it's presumably sound chassis.

Is mine a lone voice crying in the wilderness?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Peter_L



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2530
Location: New Brunswick. Canada.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Body snatchers Reply with quote

Ray White wrote:

Is mine a lone voice crying in the wilderness?


Perhaps not a lone voice, but freedom of choice must be allowed to have a place. An alternative would be to have a "Grade - Listed" register as there is with buildings/structures, but that is perhaps not desirable. If one goes down that road, where would it leave you and your beloved MG. You raise an excellent subject for discussion and opinions, this is mine...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 4001
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Body snatchers Reply with quote

Peter_L wrote:
Ray White wrote:

Is mine a lone voice crying in the wilderness?


Perhaps not a lone voice, but freedom of choice must be allowed to have a place. An alternative would be to have a "Grade - Listed" register as there is with buildings/structures, but that is perhaps not desirable. If one goes down that road, where would it leave you and your beloved MG. You raise an excellent subject for discussion and opinions, this is mine...


I am pretty certain that there is no chance of a "listed" status being applied to cars. There is not even any protection for Veteran cars (pre 1905).

As far as my MG is concerned; apart from being a matching numbers car, all the original panels are being retained and only the completely rotten tub is being replaced to the factory drawings. Despite numerous mechanical improvements there is no intention of creating a 'special".

As I have said, I am not against specials as such but it pains me to see a perfectly sound classic being ripped apart especially when there are other, less viable options.

I do not underestimate the quicksand of my argument not least that many Mk V1 Bentleys were re bodied by prestigious coach builders .

Just look at this magnificent styling by H.J. Mulliner. ...



Then there is the financial incentive with a LeMans type replica fetching far more than a tired standard MkV1.


That is why I am asking if I am alone in slating the body snatchers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6438
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do find it very surprising that these "vintage" specials make economic sense. OK the MkVI has its problems and they don't command silly money but nobody is going to be fooled by these specials with the their IFS hidden.

Peter
_________________
http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2½ litre saloon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Peter_L



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2530
Location: New Brunswick. Canada.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter scott wrote:
I do find it very surprising that these "vintage" specials make economic sense. OK the MkVI has its problems and they don't command silly money but nobody is going to be fooled by these specials with the their IFS hidden.

Peter


With respect, you may be under estimating the number of "nobody's" that cannot balance sense and money.. Proverbs 21:20
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
mikeC



Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Posts: 1656
Location: Market Warsop, Nottinghamshire

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter scott wrote:
I do find it very surprising that these "vintage" specials make economic sense. OK the MkVI has its problems and they don't command silly money but nobody is going to be fooled by these specials with the their IFS hidden.

Peter


But that's the trouble: it does make economic sense. A complete special can be built up for around the same cost as restoring an original body, and the resultant car has a market value around three times that of the original car. The same applies to Austin Sevens, where a so-called Ulster replica can be built for the same sort of money that a Ruby restoration will cost, and the resulting special commands a grossly inflated value. It's a case of supply and demand - there are more people looking for a sporting car - even in special form - than there are for the original saloon.

And I'm with Ray on this one: why destroy a complete original car (Bentley or Austin) when there are plenty of bodyless 'kits' which could be used?
_________________
in the garage: 1931 Austin 7, 1953 Lancia Appia
recently departed: 1967 Singer Chamois, 1914 Saxon, 1930 Morris Cowley, 1936 BSA Scout, 1958 Lancia Appia coupe, 1922 Star 11.9 ... the list goes on!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MikeEdwards



Joined: 25 May 2011
Posts: 2003
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's a real pity that this is still going on, so you're not alone Ray, no.

I am surprised, given how much stuff was lost decades ago to special builders, that anyone is still doing it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6438
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People have mental open spaces about open cars but assuming that continues then it would make much more sense to convert MkVI saloons into MkVI DHCs.

The DHC versions of Jaguar MkVs command silly prices relative to their saloon stablemates and a "coachbuilt" MkVI DHC would be a much more honest vehicle than a pretend Cricklewood. For sure there are plenty of proper coachbuilt MkVI DHCs around but I think much of the standard steel saloon rear end could be adapted. The rear of the Jaguar DHC uses much of the saloon metalwaork.



https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/11095/lot/169/



Peter
_________________
http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk
1939 SS Jaguar 2½ litre saloon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 4001
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to be reassured that I am not alone. I think it is the fact that in 2020 it is still going on.

Back in my student days a friend and I thought up a plan to convert Morris Minor saloons into convertibles. It was going to be called "chop top Minors!"

I still shudder to think about it! Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
lowdrag



Joined: 10 Apr 2009
Posts: 1394
Location: Le Mans

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You seem to have overlooked the * in this thread. Many Mk VIs were turned into Le Mans replicas, but still are a Mk VI on the V5. These cars sould, if built after 1998, have passed the SVA or more recently the IVA. If the DVLA start to get antsy they could demand a photo of the car when renewing the road fund licence, and sure as hell a Le Mans Bentley does not look quite like a Mk VI. Result? V5 withdrawn until IVA passed, then it becomes a 2020 car with road tax and an MOT after three years. I know this is not in prospect, but one never knows. How many cars are out there, of all makes, whcih could suffer as a result? An Aston DB4 converted to a DB4 Zagato, with 4" chopped out of the chassis? The list goes on and on.

(edited RJ - removed, not sure we can get away with that phrase nowadays, even if partially obscured)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 4001
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who is to know when the car was chopped up?

There are enough issues connected with specials without big brother getting in the passenger seat.!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
alanb



Joined: 10 Sep 2012
Posts: 507
Location: Berkshire.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may be wrong, but as I understand it the DVLA’s criteria for maintaining historic vehicle status is the points system, where the vehicle has a separate chassis the body has no points value as the rule states 5 points for an unmodified chassis or monocoque body, then goes on to adds points for original engine and running gear.
I often fume when I read adds for hot rods that say “historic vehicle MOT & tax exempt, jag suspension rover V8 engine auto gearbox bespoke chassis etc”, when there are clubs for historic cars struggling to retain original registrations and historic status for genuine vehicles.
I have no problem with creating a special from vehicle where the body is badly damaged and beyond salvage, or just in such poor conditions it’s not worth saving that at least keeps another old car on the road, but to dismantle a perfectly good old car just to rob it’s chassis I find rather sad.
_________________
old tourer


Morris 8 two seater
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 4001
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps someone will be able to use the body on another MkV1 chassis. It is rare to find one of these cars that hasn't succumbed to rust.

Hopefully this one will find an appreciative new owner.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Rick
Site Admin


Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 21548
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've yet to see a special based on a MkVI that looks good, they tend to look either average or pretty terrible. But I've seen several nice MkVI saloons.

More alarming though is still seeing pre-war Rileys and A7s being chopped about into faux specials or racers. Building something from a pile of bits is fine, destroying a saloon to achieve the same ends isn't really cricket.

RJ
_________________
Rick (OCC Admin)
Various 1920s-1960s - Austin, Morris, Commer, Dodge etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 4001
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I couldn't agree more, Rick. There are plenty of Riley and Austin seven specials if you want one; even buy one of the numerous unfinished projects and do it to your own design. There is no need to deplete further the small number of original cars - especially if it means sacrificing a sound body.

I have only seen one MkV1 Special deserving of the name and that was a Le Mans replica which was a genuine copy and would have cost a fortune to create. It was being sold by Rolls Royce/ Bentley agents in Sunningdale and they were pretty fussy about their stock.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration. Forum Index -> Classic & Vintage Cars, Lorries, Vans, Motorcycles etc - General Chat All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Forum T&C


php BB powered © php BB Grp.