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Historic cars with black & white registration plates
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mikeC



Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Posts: 1668
Location: Market Warsop, Nottinghamshire

PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:26 pm    Post subject: Historic cars with black & white registration plates Reply with quote

I see DVLA has finally admitted they had no authority to allow post-1973 vehicle to display black & white plates as it contravenes previous legislation!

In a typical fudge, they will now continue to be allowed on pre-1980 vehicles, but future 'historics' will have to retain their present reflective type of plate:

https://www.fbhvc.co.uk/news/article/changes-to-black-silver-number-plates-from-01012021
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recently departed: 1967 Singer Chamois, 1914 Saxon, 1930 Morris Cowley, 1936 BSA Scout, 1958 Lancia Appia coupe, 1922 Star 11.9 ... the list goes on!
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 4176
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So why 1980 if the legal date is 1973?

What's so special about vehicles registered in the intervening years?
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colwyn500



Joined: 21 Oct 2012
Posts: 1748
Location: Nairn, Scotland

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray White wrote:
So why 1980 if the legal date is 1973?

What's so special about vehicles registered in the intervening years?


They're saying it's "to avoid any undue costs of replacement". ....very thoughtful of them, and perhaps an indication of the very influential nature of the FBHVC?

My Fiat 500 was registered in 1969 and has its original reflective plates of which I am very proud. So I guess that, in practise, black plates were already being superceded prior to becomeing legally prohibited in 1973. Many owners of this make of Italian car get away with fitting their cars with undersized, black, UK plates emulating Italian style; another practise which I abhor and risks creating the impression that old car owners feel entitled to make their own rules.
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 4176
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

colwyn500 wrote:
Ray White wrote:
So why 1980 if the legal date is 1973?

What's so special about vehicles registered in the intervening years?


They're saying it's "to avoid any undue costs of replacement". ....very thoughtful of them, and perhaps an indication of the very influential nature of the FBHVC?

My Fiat 500 was registered in 1969 and has its original reflective plates of which I am very proud. So I guess that, in practise, black plates were already being superceded prior to becomeing legally prohibited in 1973. Many owners of this make of Italian car get away with fitting their cars with undersized, black, UK plates emulating Italian style; another practise which I abhor and risks creating the impression that old car owners feel entitled to make their own rules.


I couldn't agree with you more! I have always felt the more that old cars and their owners are given some kind of special treatment; be it M.O.T exemption, no road tax, "historic " status etc. the easier it is, potentially, for them to be picked off by officaldom and their usage curtailed.

I feel we are more than a little lucky to have an organisation such as the FBHVC to protect the freedoms that we enjoy but there is always a tendency for people to become complacent and leave it to someone else.

I have a worry that with the internal combustion engine set to become as socially popular as smoking and ever more strident voices with an ostensibly "green " agenda, our hobby may cease to be seen in official circles as an innocent pass time.
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mikeC



Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Posts: 1668
Location: Market Warsop, Nottinghamshire

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

colwyn500 wrote:

...Many owners of this make of Italian car get away with fitting their cars with undersized, black, UK plates emulating Italian style; another practise which I abhor and risks creating the impression that old car owners feel entitled to make their own rules.


I quite agree, this is why I made sure I fitted period-correct plates to my Lancia when I imported it:



There have been a surprising number of 'Italian car enthusiasts' who have criticised me for it, and I have had to point out that their cars were not road-legal!
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in the garage: 1931 Austin 7, 1953 Lancia Appia
recently departed: 1967 Singer Chamois, 1914 Saxon, 1930 Morris Cowley, 1936 BSA Scout, 1958 Lancia Appia coupe, 1922 Star 11.9 ... the list goes on!
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 6543
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray White wrote:

I have a worry that with the internal combustion engine set to become as socially popular as smoking and ever more strident voices with an ostensibly "green " agenda, our hobby may cease to be seen in official circles as an innocent pass time.


I wouldn't get too worried about that. This fixation with chemical batteries for powering vehicles will eventually be seen as untenable. There isn't anything like enough capacity in the grid to provide power for home heating let alone vehicle transport. There is however a good gas network for home heating so hydrogen production will progress in the future and whilst we may not wish to consider fuel cells and electric motors in our oldies I think we could consider a gas tank replacing our petrol tanks.

Peter
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 4176
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter scott wrote:
Ray White wrote:

I have a worry that with the internal combustion engine set to become as socially popular as smoking and ever more strident voices with an ostensibly "green " agenda, our hobby may cease to be seen in official circles as an innocent pass time.


I wouldn't get too worried about that. This fixation with chemical batteries for powering vehicles will eventually be seen as untenable. There isn't anything like enough capacity in the grid to provide power for home heating let alone vehicle transport. There is however a good gas network for home heating so hydrogen production will progress in the future and whilst we may not wish to consider fuel cells and electric motors in our oldies I think we could consider a gas tank replacing our petrol tanks.

Peter


You make a valid point, Peter. I suppose it is entirely possible that we may all be forced, eventually, to change to an alternative to petrol if it becomes either too scarce or expensive - or both! Given that scenario then fitting a Hydrogen system might be an answer. Certainly better than a plug in electric set up; which as you imply may yet prove unviable anyway!
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MikeEdwards



Joined: 25 May 2011
Posts: 2038
Location: South Cheshire

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray White wrote:
So why 1980 if the legal date is 1973?


Because that's the current cut-off date, and they hardly ever (or perhaps never) introduce limitations retrospectively, it's always "from this point on". As the loophole has allowed people to fit black and white plates on cars up to 1980, they'll still be able to drive around with plates that look wrong in most cases.

I have read elsewhere that another regulation designed to prevent these modern embossed plates (which some people actually refer to as "4D" plates) from being used may well inadvertently make the old-style "Bluemels" plastic-letter plates illegal. So, close one inadvertent loophole and create another.

(I always thought that the black/white plate thing came about because, for years, both cut-off dates were the same. Someone started shortening the wording on the black/white plate cut-off date to refer to the VED exemption cut-off date, not thinking that the latter would ever start advancing again.)
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1510
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think, someone somewhere has done the numbers game once more...? [With respect to old motors?]
Looking at the number of 40+ year old vehicles out there, actually taxed & on the road, the numbers may prove to be inconsequential in the greater scheme of things?

I suspect the numbers get even lower come the winter months?

[Only daft boogers like me go out in the wintertime, in cars with no roof, and a driver with no visible means of support?]

My '67 Mustang arrived under my backside with a set of small [but quite legible] silver on black number plates. When Purchased, it had a set of refelctives...so somewhere, they got swapped over [the reflectives are in the boot].

Now, given that the poor old thing originally would have had US plates, I'm not sure how it sits in the debate?

Certainly, I have done quite a few thousand miles [probably 8 or 9?] in it since it came to me....and on no occasion has it ever had its plates questioned....by any body. Including an MoT test or two in my hands...[The poor ol' thig was imported by the previous owner, about 9 months before I coughed up for it]...
Nowt said!
I shall leave things as they are for the moment, anyway.
The Dellow is on what might well be its original plates?

Stamped ally [albeit a trifle bent at the rear]....

Now, a local Trafpol, in discussion, informed me that B&W or B&S plates cannot be read by many ANPR systems?

I'm not sure how true or conclusive that is?

He did show me on the ANPR in his car, that the Dellow's plates could not be read!!

But his comment was....how many Dellows does one see in a day? Especially on a cold and rainy day?

If someone is willing to stump up 45 pensionquids, I might be persuaded to take the Mustang down to the local Lidl car park, and overstay my welcome? Just to see if their car park ANPR can read the plates????


Round these parts, one is more likely to get a ticking off for not cleaning one's rear number plates...regardless of age.

I think though, the govt may introduce a new meter, that measures the daftness of a driver?
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Dellow Mk2, 1951 built, reg 1952.
Ford Mustang coupe, 1967, 6 cylinder auto.
Fiat 126 BIS
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mikeC



Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Posts: 1668
Location: Market Warsop, Nottinghamshire

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alastairq wrote:

My '67 Mustang arrived under my backside with a set of small [but quite legible] silver on black number plates. When Purchased, it had a set of refelctives...so somewhere, they got swapped over [the reflectives are in the boot].

Now, given that the poor old thing originally would have had US plates, I'm not sure how it sits in the debate?



1967 was the first year that reflective plates were available, so I suppose either would be suitable - entirely dependant on your preference.
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recently departed: 1967 Singer Chamois, 1914 Saxon, 1930 Morris Cowley, 1936 BSA Scout, 1958 Lancia Appia coupe, 1922 Star 11.9 ... the list goes on!
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Miken



Joined: 24 Dec 2012
Posts: 379

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray White wrote:
peter scott wrote:
Ray White wrote:

I have a worry that with the internal combustion engine set to become as socially popular as smoking and ever more strident voices with an ostensibly "green " agenda, our hobby may cease to be seen in official circles as an innocent pass time.


I wouldn't get too worried about that. This fixation with chemical batteries for powering vehicles will eventually be seen as untenable. There isn't anything like enough capacity in the grid to provide power for home heating let alone vehicle transport. There is however a good gas network for home heating so hydrogen production will progress in the future and whilst we may not wish to consider fuel cells and electric motors in our oldies I think we could consider a gas tank replacing our petrol tanks.

Peter


You make a valid point, Peter. I suppose it is entirely possible that we may all be forced, eventually, to change to an alternative to petrol if it becomes either too scarce or expensive - or both! Given that scenario then fitting a Hydrogen system might be an answer. Certainly better than a plug in electric set up; which as you imply may yet prove unviable anyway!

I'm probably missing something here but ( I never did physics at school), If you don't think there will be enough generating capacity for battery EVs , won't there be even less for hydrogen cars? Isn't hydrogen manufacturered using electricity? Which would then have to be compressed (presumably electric compressors) then chilled (with electricity) then transported, presumably by road in a big tanker truck (powered by whatever) to the filling station where it is pumped into the car before being converted back to electricity to power the electric motor.It all seems horribly inefficient.
whereas with a BEV, the power is generated, it travels down a shiny copper cable into the car and the car is then driven.
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
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Location: Derby

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miken wrote:

I'm probably missing something here but ( I never did physics at school), If you don't think there will be enough generating capacity for battery EVs , won't there be even less for hydrogen cars? Isn't hydrogen manufacturered using electricity? Which would then have to be compressed (presumably electric compressors) then chilled (with electricity) then transported, presumably by road in a big tanker truck (powered by whatever) to the filling station where it is pumped into the car before being converted back to electricity to power the electric motor.It all seems horribly inefficient.
whereas with a BEV, the power is generated, it travels down a shiny copper cable into the car and the car is then driven.


Perhaps this is the future?

https://www.sciencealert.com/rust-and-light-promise-to-make-hydrogen-fuel-production-25x-more-efficient

How about that! A car that can turn it's own rust into fuel! Sounds like it's too good to be true!!
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alanb



Joined: 10 Sep 2012
Posts: 514
Location: Berkshire.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old cars get eaten fast enough by rust as it is, if you can produce hydrogen fuel from the rust on your car you could end up with nothing at the end of your journey 🤣🤣🤣
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miken wrote:

I'm probably missing something here but ( I never did physics at school), If you don't think there will be enough generating capacity for battery EVs , won't there be even less for hydrogen cars? Isn't hydrogen manufacturered using electricity? Which would then have to be compressed (presumably electric compressors) then chilled (with electricity) then transported, presumably by road in a big tanker truck (powered by whatever) to the filling station where it is pumped into the car before being converted back to electricity to power the electric motor.It all seems horribly inefficient.
whereas with a BEV, the power is generated, it travels down a shiny copper cable into the car and the car is then driven.


We need more renewable energy but most sources are weather dependent so you need a large element of storage or sufficient nuclear to keep the lights on when there is no wind or sun. Although generating hydrogen is not particularly efficient due to the energy required to compress it, having done so it is very convenient just like petrol. You can fill up in a couple of minutes and travel comparable distances to petrol vehicles today.

New vehicles using hydrogen to feed fuel cells are much more efficient than those burning it in engines that formerly ran on petrol but at least we could continue to run our old vehicles without generating anything worse than water vapour.

Apart from transport the other big energy problem is home heating. If all the existing gas boilers were converted to electricity then there would need to be massive increases in the electricity distribution network before you even think of charging battery vehicles as well.

Our current gas network has sufficient capacity to supply home heating with hydrogen instead of natural gas. It's not totally simple because hydrogen atoms are very small and more inclined to leakage than our current gas supplies. This doesn't matter too much in the open air as it rises out of sight but of course you can't tolerate leakage inside houses or other confined spaces. One solution to this is to run the supply pipe in a coaxial sleeve that is vented to the outside.

Now you may ask whether the leakage of hydrogen has greenhouse effects. Well it does indirectly but if hydrogen replaced all our existing fossil fuels and even if the leakage was as high as 10% the greenhouse contribution would be less than 6% of our current pollution.
https://www.geos.ed.ac.uk/~dstevens/Presentations/Papers/derwent_ijhr06.pdf

See also: https://www.sgn.co.uk/H100Fife

Peter
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Bitumen Boy



Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 1495
Location: Above the snow line in old Monmouthshire

PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alastairq wrote:


Now, a local Trafpol, in discussion, informed me that B&W or B&S plates cannot be read by many ANPR systems?

I'm not sure how true or conclusive that is?

He did show me on the ANPR in his car, that the Dellow's plates could not be read!!



A few years ago now I was using the Herald for work on a pretty regular basis, and several times forgot to sign it in at sites with ANPR controllled car parks. I never got a ticket but I believe colleagues who made the same mistake did.
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