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Rep C-Type builder sued by JLR
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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 21759
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:16 pm    Post subject: Rep C-Type builder sued by JLR Reply with quote

Some of the big car companies are clamping down on anyone creating anything (even artwork) inspired by their back catalogue.

A retired gent in Sweden sued for copyright infringement after building himself a C-Type in his shed at home ... https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oSztzRGWR0_bme0cGZxwTwd1R83eA4zp/view?fbclid=IwAR312VV1l-jUlW9_2QFU2YNNlFsnpHrhrgCPmLGdjpMgTcOi22aAoHJUcI8 Shocked

RJ
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Various 1920s-1960s - Austin, Morris, Commer, Dodge etc.
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Peter_L



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
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Location: New Brunswick. Canada.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I Googled this. My opinion, a complex situation the details of which are many, varied and perhaps beyond what is online.
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lowdrag



Joined: 10 Apr 2009
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Location: Le Mans

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are so right Peter. The full details and the intricacy of the case will all come out in due course. As of today everyone is running scared and a lot of jobs are at stake. One company had announced a run of seven Ecurie Ecosse lookalikes but which are no way the same - wider body, vented discs all round, fuel injection Mazda 8 rear diff - no need to go on, you get the point. He too has had a "cease and desist" letter from Jaguar, which has put 30 jobs on the line. All over the world people are making copies of cars, be it Jaguar, Ford (GT40), Cobra, and all are now at risk following this ruling. What puzzles me is that Jaguar lost what seemed to me to be a similar case against INEOS over their new Grenadier, which looks like the old LandRover. But then I am not a lawyer. Where do all of us who have a replica stand? Are Jaguar just going after the makers or everyone?
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Penman



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
I wonder if they will have a go at Mitsuoka.

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Rick
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read elsewhere that the couple in Sweden may have been planning to sell replica C-Types, rather than just build the one for themselves. Although there's no mention of this in the document linked to about (I think).

RJ
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Court decision was plainly questionable given the INEOS precident and their own erstwhile support for replica builders in the past.

The action taken by JLR Classic Works is unreasonable and I fully expect the appeal to be successful.

I shall be contributing something to the crowd funding request (despite my own parlous financial position) because I am so incensed.
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peter scott



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if this would put a stop to after market parts?

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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
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Location: Derby

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter scott wrote:
I wonder if this would put a stop to after market parts?

Peter


I believe the knock on effects for this decision could be very far reaching and should be considered at the appeal. I know for a fact that restorers of genuine SS100 cars, for example, have used "Suffolk" replica parts extensively so I imagine restorers of C types may have also been glad of this particular supply of high quality parts.

I would expect the FBHVC to recognise the implications for all restorers of genuine vehicles and lend their support to the appeal.

In addition, I would hope that the 'All Party' committee of MPs (that consider threats to our hobby) will also step up to the plate on this occasion; if only to protect British citizens who will be adversely affected.
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ukdave2002



Joined: 23 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its difficult to understand what JLR's motive is in this matter?

If someone was producing replicas of vehicles in production I could understand their issue.
JLR could have targeted other much larger replica firms who have replicas in production , but have chosen to target a one man and a dog operation who haven't sold anything?

I haven't read all the documentation, but I think there is something we are missing....

Dave
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Peter_L



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick wrote:
I've read elsewhere that the couple in Sweden may have been planning to sell replica C-Types, rather than just build the one for themselves. Although there's no mention of this in the document linked to about (I think).

RJ


From what I could find, it appears that the intention was to sell them as being original. An "iceberg story" perhaps.
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consul 57



Joined: 09 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the copyright laws seem to be different dependant on where you live, in the uk they are quite strict whilst in china you can copy what ever you like and no one cares inside the country.
a fellow residient of my home town downloaded the plans for a full size dalek whilst he was dying of cancer and made it from mdf as something to take his mind off it, when he had finished it and near the end he decided to raffle it for cancer charities but the bbc put a stop to it as it was a breach of copywright.
the problem is it is not illegal to copy something for your own use but it is illegal to sell it or give it away, the dalek owner had a mention in the local press so hence why the bbc found out, they had a department looking for copyright issues especialy on the web, i imagine most big firms now also do this, ordnance survey certainly do.
the bigger the company the more strict they will be so an approximation would be better than a replica.
good luck to the swedish chap i hope he wins.
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Ray White



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could be wrong, but where it might not be unreasonable for a Company to prohibit anyone from using their Trade Mark, I think it could be argued that it is unreasonable for them to protest against the re creation of an obsolete vehicle such as the C Type; especially as they have been a willing party to such activities in the past.

Surely JLR must be able to demonstrate that they have suffered, or could be expected to suffer some commercial disadvantage? I fail to see how they can claim to be be detrimentally affected in any way.
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lowdrag



Joined: 10 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you will find that this is not just a case of big-bully Jaguar attacking grannie and grandad, as first thought. The Magnussens I fear have been somewhat economical with the truth. and were planning to make another six cars to sell on. They were warned, but persisted, and find themselves hit with a very big stick. That, in my mind, doesn't excuse Jaguar in the slightest. They could easily, having won the case (for now anyway) have picked up the tab themselves. It's just pocket change to them.

What irks me is that Jaguar have announced that they are themselves building eight new C-types, and have specifically said that they will be identical to the lightweight 1953 Le Mans-winning car. Now they've said this before, and have been found wanting in the breach. Did the XKSS, in 1957, have negative earth and an electronic rev counter? No, of course it didn't, and not one of their "continuation" cars has been correctly built. Now the 1953 C-type had a bag tank suspended from the rear bodywork. I am rather doubtful, on elf and safe tea grounds, that this will be repeated. That is just one example. And Jaguar have announced that, despite forking out 1.5 million, these cars are not designed for road use.

But what really irks me is that Jaguar have not built even one of their new cars themselves. The bodies are sourced out, the engines from Crossthwaite and Gardner, the gearboxes too, the instruments from Smiths, and all Jaguar are doing is setting up an assembly line for imported parts. T'was always thus, I hear you say, with Abbey Panels making the bodies, etc. etc. but Jaguar at least had their own production line, trim department and so on.

The Jaguar statement issued yesterday makes it clear that people such as myself with an existing replica are not in any danger, as was first thought. They are going after those who are building for profit. Step up to be counted Hoffmans, Classic Jaguar Replicas, Concours Restorations of Australia, Realm, AK Replicas, Lynx and many more. But if the Magnussens can build and sell a correct C-type for 250,000, then why are Jaguar selling theirs for 1.5 million a pop? Because they can, of course, but it leaves a very bad taste in the mouth when Big brother steamrollers the little man.

Then of course we have the contradiction between this case and the previous one involving INEOS who are planning to make the Grenadier, a thinly-disguised copy of the Defender. Jaguar lost that case.

This affair has certainly not ended. Appeals are being made, and crowd-funding for the Magnussens has already begun. More anon.
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Ray White



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lowdrag. You have made some interesting observations. First, I had not appreciated that the Magnussons were planning on building a short run of C Types. In itself that would not be an issue as Jaguar have been supportive of other replica builders; some of whom are not just supplying kits of parts but entire vehicles.

I think the main issue is something you have touched on and it is that so called 'replicas' are never exactly the same as the original vehicles because concessions need be given to modern safety laws.

It is interesting that the cars Jaguar are supposedly going to build are not for road use. The same applies to the short run of DB5s that Aston Martin is building.

There is also the eventual selling price. One would be forgiven for assuming that in this case the Jaguar offering would be an EXACT copy of the original. I am surprised to learn that they are not as described. Perhaps a counter claim against Jaguar for misrepresentation would be poetic justice?
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lowdrag



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray, Jaguar have never officially given approval to any replica but have, like a parent to his offspring, smiled benignly from above. But the smile has become a scowl it seems. When I built the "Kettle" Jaguar could not have been more helpful, allowing me access to the archives and providing me with copies of photos. Neville Swales was allowed access when building his XJ13, although that relationship did turn sour in the end. Realm and Proteus are the big manufacturers of replica C-types, making cars and kits totalling near 300 each I am led to believe. There's the new nascent Lynx too. All we can do is await the outcome of the appeals, both in the case of INEOS and their Grenadier and in Sweden.
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