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My new pop project - '53 Sit Up and Beg
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Peter_L



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2680
Location: New Brunswick. Canada.

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Minxy wrote:


The wheel is cut in half and a ‘band’ of metal welded in to make the wheel wider while still looking stock from the side.


But it's not. I just deleted the rest of my post.. OCC is OCC. Like it or go elsewhere. There is no point....
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Rick
Site Admin


Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 22429
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter_L wrote:
Minxy wrote:


The wheel is cut in half and a ‘band’ of metal welded in to make the wheel wider while still looking stock from the side.


But it's not. I just deleted the rest of my post.. OCC is OCC. Like it or go elsewhere. There is no point....


Modifying Pops & Anglias has been going on since the beginning of time (almost), so has been part of the UK motoring scene for decades, it's not my thing in particular and I prefer to see original cars left like that ... but ... in my role as admin/moderator I want to encourage old-car build threads on here, not turn people away. It might not be what I'd do with it, but that doesn't mean I don't want to read about it.

If the forum is to continue, it needs new joiners and long-termers alike to write about their projects, interests etc. Most people who join up never post or contribute anything (I assume they're just joining to direct message older members about something they've posted in the past), so when someone new here does post about their old-car project, even if it means modifications, I want to read about it.

RJ
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 6286
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick is of course right. I think the value of a forum such as this is that we can share ideas and information.

We all have our own take on how to approach old car ownership and those views can be conflicting.

Personally I would suggest that if someone buys an old car with the intention of eliminating it's authenticity they might do well to consider that the manufacturers will have spent large sums of money on the original design and often projects fail because either the cost or complexity of modifications are not thought through at the start.

That said, I am sure there are plenty of opportunities to improve the usability and safety of many classic cars and if that gets them out and about I am in favour.
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Minxy



Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 272
Location: West Northants

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having worked for many years taking perfectly good Audi Quattro’s and turning them into rally cars I’m probably guilty as charged.
I have also been one to support the idea that it is that persons property to do as they please whether I agree or not.....but......

I am intrigued to know what the reasoning is behind the OP’s intentions. I have a friend who runs one of these as a second car. When his wife is at work this is his only means of local transport and in the last couple of years, bar a couple of hic-cups, it has been 100% reliable. I am of the opinion that by changing major mechanical items one can be in danger of introducing unreliability.

Of particular interest is why a roll cage? Generally a half cage will provide some protection if the car is rolled over ( unlikely in a road car) a full cage will give some extra protection but at the expense of loosing rear seating and restricting easy access into the front seats.

In all, in my opinion, a standard car kept in tip-top fettle would be far more reliable and user friendly for every day use.
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AmusingEmu



Joined: 11 May 2021
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Minxy wrote:
Having worked for many years taking perfectly good Audi Quattro’s and turning them into rally cars I’m probably guilty as charged.
I have also been one to support the idea that it is that persons property to do as they please whether I agree or not.....but......

I am intrigued to know what the reasoning is behind the OP’s intentions. I have a friend who runs one of these as a second car. When his wife is at work this is his only means of local transport and in the last couple of years, bar a couple of hic-cups, it has been 100% reliable. I am of the opinion that by changing major mechanical items one can be in danger of introducing unreliability.

Of particular interest is why a roll cage? Generally a half cage will provide some protection if the car is rolled over ( unlikely in a road car) a full cage will give some extra protection but at the expense of loosing rear seating and restricting easy access into the front seats.

In all, in my opinion, a standard car kept in tip-top fettle would be far more reliable and user friendly for every day use.


The biggest issue is the power of the engine and it’s ability to get up the sizeable hills in my local area, that and having to travel 20-30miles to see family along A roads means needing a car that can cope with this.

Now I fully understand most people’s desire to keep it as original as possible and I want to try to keep as much of that as possible while gaining some modern luxuries to make this a true daily driver and not sit in a garage for the occasional nice weather outing.

I plan on taking my son out with me a lot and safety is the primary driver for an internal cage. This also as far as I can tell be the easiest solution for installing seatbelts unless anyone else can shed some light on this. Again this all comes down the the bodywork, if it is sound enough to be left alone without needing a cage then it would be great.

It would appear that my plans to modernise this car has caused a bit of upset, although there is no difference really between this and the rodding community but instead of a large v8 and open front end the aim is to keep the car appearing as original as possible. Hopefully I can prove that this is in keeping with the car and will continue to post updates if people want them.
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Peter_L



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 2680
Location: New Brunswick. Canada.

PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adding the 1600 Crossflow and 5 speed box will certainly keep the braincells, engineering and welding tools busy. Not sure where you are in the UK, but there aren't too many hills that would completely negate passage from the old side valve. I look forward to following your progress.
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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 22429
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AmusingEmu wrote:
....
Hopefully I can prove that this is in keeping with the car and will continue to post updates if people want them.


Yes, updates please.

RJ
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V8 Nutter



Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 587

PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A roll cage may not be necessary. It must be nearly 60 years ago, late one night I was returning from the Stock Car Racing at Coventry (does that make me guilty by association of destroying old cars) we came across a Pop or Anglia lying on its side in the hedgerow. the roof had hit a tree and was crush almost flat as were the tops of the doors, both the front and rear screens had been blown out. As we stopped to see if we could help, an extremely drunken Irish man crawled out through the remains of the fabric roof centre. He had cuts and bruises, but was otherwise unhurt. I am sure if the car had had a conventional steel roof, the driver would have been crushed, when the car hit the tree.
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Rootes75



Joined: 30 Apr 2013
Posts: 3788
Location: The Somerset Levels

PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I am concerned, everyone of us has an opinion, as long as its not offensive and its motor related its good to get those views aired.

Sometimes its nice when people disagree, it at least makes us think about things and open us up to new approaches or ideas.
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alastairq



Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 1950
Location: East Yorkshire

PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This Anglia, if ''original'', may well be equipped with the Ford 8 sidevalve motor? [993cc?}

In which case, finding a Ford 10 motor [1172cc] and inserting is a better way of upgrading power without sacrificing much in the way of originality?
I would also advise, if going this route, to use the 10HP gearbox as well, since the 8HP gearbox has a lower ratio 1st gear.

Then, to increase the compression ratio [better low rev lugging power], fit the 8 HP cylinder head to the 10HP engine.
Another way of increasing hill climbing ability of these old Fords is to swap all the wheels for Ford Prefect wheels? These are 16 inch as standard [compared to the 17 inch wheels of the Anglia], since the Prefect is a much heavier lump for the 1172cc engine to hump around.

This might lower top speed [which is really academic?] a wee bit, but will slightly improve the Anglia's acceleration.

The biggest drawback of the sidevalve Fords were Ford's habit of clinging onto the 3 speed gearbox.

However, there have been simple conversions utilizing the Reliant 4 speed box , which is almost as compact as the 3 speed Ford box?

With 1172 cc sidevalve power, one ought to be able to rattle along at 50 mph for hours on end.

One can of course, tune the 1172cc sidevalve engine. Twin SU carbs on an Aquaplane manifold is one way.

My Ford sidevlalve 10HP engine , in a lightweight special with 5 to 1 final drive, saw 55 bhp on a rolling road [at the wheels] , with twin SU 1 1/8ths carbs, 8 HP head, etc.


The thing with the Ford sidevalve engine isn't BHP.

It's torque.

A better way of increasing output on the 10HP engine , in my view, is to supercharge it.
This will deliver roughly the same outputs as twin carbs, cam, head, etc.....but the difference will be, the power is improved from tickover, rather than further up the rev range.Tthis suits the 3 speed gearbox much better.

Panhard rods on both front & rear axles help handling no end.

Standard Ford 16 inch wheels will happily accept 175 /80 x 16 radial taxi tyres, or Nexen tyres [put on facing inwards, so the white lettering doesn't show]...These will provide more grip than any modern car....but ne has to learn how to get the best out of the Ford's handling abilities.
The factory didn't do it all for you, unlike with today's cars.

The options are there, without the more radical chopping around that will inevitably accompany fitting OHV or OHC modern engines and gearboxes and axles.
Plus, it isn't worth trying to keep the original suspension, if going 'modern'....

Oh, I forgot, to aid acquiring more chassis stiffness, it could do with boxing in the side rails in the center portion. However, if retaining all the Ford bodywork, this provides stiffness in itself.
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AmusingEmu



Joined: 11 May 2021
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

V8 Nutter wrote:
A roll cage may not be necessary. It must be nearly 60 years ago, late one night I was returning from the Stock Car Racing at Coventry (does that make me guilty by association of destroying old cars) we came across a Pop or Anglia lying on its side in the hedgerow. the roof had hit a tree and was crush almost flat as were the tops of the doors, both the front and rear screens had been blown out. As we stopped to see if we could help, an extremely drunken Irish man crawled out through the remains of the fabric roof centre. He had cuts and bruises, but was otherwise unhurt. I am sure if the car had had a conventional steel roof, the driver would have been crushed, when the car hit the tree.


i am probably being paranoid about it all but after having a 60mph head on crash 8 years ago and suffering some pretty nasty injuries thanks to a drunk driver I am overly cautious when it comes to car safety and not overly knowledgeable on the strength of the Anglia chassis and body
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peter scott



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 7113
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My sister had a 100E Prefect and its acceleration in 2nd was quite impressive but then all stopped when you selected top.

I wouldn't recommend the early Reliant gearbox. I had to swap out two layshafts in my Rebel. The all synchro in the Kitten was OK.

Peter
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AmusingEmu



Joined: 11 May 2021
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alastairq wrote:
This Anglia, if ''original'', may well be equipped with the Ford 8 sidevalve motor? [993cc?}

In which case, finding a Ford 10 motor [1172cc] and inserting is a better way of upgrading power without sacrificing much in the way of originality?
I would also advise, if going this route, to use the 10HP gearbox as well, since the 8HP gearbox has a lower ratio 1st gear.

Then, to increase the compression ratio [better low rev lugging power], fit the 8 HP cylinder head to the 10HP engine.
Another way of increasing hill climbing ability of these old Fords is to swap all the wheels for Ford Prefect wheels? These are 16 inch as standard [compared to the 17 inch wheels of the Anglia], since the Prefect is a much heavier lump for the 1172cc engine to hump around.

This might lower top speed [which is really academic?] a wee bit, but will slightly improve the Anglia's acceleration.

The biggest drawback of the sidevalve Fords were Ford's habit of clinging onto the 3 speed gearbox.

However, there have been simple conversions utilizing the Reliant 4 speed box , which is almost as compact as the 3 speed Ford box?

With 1172 cc sidevalve power, one ought to be able to rattle along at 50 mph for hours on end.

One can of course, tune the 1172cc sidevalve engine. Twin SU carbs on an Aquaplane manifold is one way.

My Ford sidevlalve 10HP engine , in a lightweight special with 5 to 1 final drive, saw 55 bhp on a rolling road [at the wheels] , with twin SU 1 1/8ths carbs, 8 HP head, etc.


The thing with the Ford sidevalve engine isn't BHP.

It's torque.

A better way of increasing output on the 10HP engine , in my view, is to supercharge it.
This will deliver roughly the same outputs as twin carbs, cam, head, etc.....but the difference will be, the power is improved from tickover, rather than further up the rev range.Tthis suits the 3 speed gearbox much better.

Panhard rods on both front & rear axles help handling no end.

Standard Ford 16 inch wheels will happily accept 175 /80 x 16 radial taxi tyres, or Nexen tyres [put on facing inwards, so the white lettering doesn't show]...These will provide more grip than any modern car....but ne has to learn how to get the best out of the Ford's handling abilities.
The factory didn't do it all for you, unlike with today's cars.

The options are there, without the more radical chopping around that will inevitably accompany fitting OHV or OHC modern engines and gearboxes and axles.
Plus, it isn't worth trying to keep the original suspension, if going 'modern'....

Oh, I forgot, to aid acquiring more chassis stiffness, it could do with boxing in the side rails in the center portion. However, if retaining all the Ford bodywork, this provides stiffness in itself.


Thanks Alistair, very helpful with alot of information and options. I will seriously consider the 10HP route as from what I have seen so far most seem to swap the engine out but then again I have only really been on the rodding forums where this obviously makes more sense.

Suspension will be going as on closer inspection the leaf springs have had it so will be look to replace everything, likely end up replacing the front axle with a Viva or having looked at sizes etc a MX5 front should work without needing narrowing.

I will be running this as standard over the summer while I wait for parts etc so if the 8HP engine doesnt prove to be an issue or massively underpowered then a 10HP swap may be the best choice. I dont want to make any rushed decisions with this build
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Rick
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 22429
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could find the original 8hp engine a home for a reasonable fee Smile

Another option, if you can find any, is to look out for Ford E83W pickup wheels. They are 16" diameter like the Prefect, but a slightly wider section.

RJ
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Ray White



Joined: 02 Dec 2014
Posts: 6286
Location: Derby

PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alastair; you have hit the nail on the head. I am sure it would be far more satisfying to fit the 10 HP engine and gearbox. Bring it to life with a supercharger or fit the 8 HP head and twin carbs.

There have been countless examples of improving old Fords; including Colin Chapman... he knew a thing or two. Wink

http://www.colinchapmanmuseum.co.uk/?page_id=2813
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