Classic cars forum & vehicle restoration.

[pigtin]

I have often suspected that the term “conspiracy theorist” was coined to denigrate anyone who hits on uncomfortable truths.
At the risk of being accused of this heinous crime perhaps someone could put my mind at rest on the following.

My grandson has a polystyrene model aircraft powered by a battery… power-to-weight ratios would have made this impossible less than a decade ago. I have a cordless strimmer that works for ages on one charge of a very lightweight battery, there is my cordless drill that can drive an unbelievable amount of screws in on one charge and countless other devices that do amazing things that at one time would have needed a huge battery. And these devices are cheap!

The one thing that has not seemingly kept pace with these developments is the electric vehicle. Could there be some sinister reason for this, with vested interests slowing development. Or perhaps I am not up to date on current vehicle developments, and they are slaving away to overcome some technical problem that I am unaware of?

With global warming being blamed on vehicle emissions I would have thought that the development such vehicles would be of worldwide importance.
My apologies if this is all a bit heavy on an otherwise light-hearted forum, but this is starting to worry me.

[UKdave2002]

At the end of they day its consumer driven, we can thank the advances in battery technology pronominally to the mobile phone and laptop industry and our thirst for more power and longer cycles between charges.

The problem with any electric car is the lack of any guaranteed infrastructure to re-charge, fine if you only use your car close to home or can arrange to charge at the destination, but a bit risky if you want to jump in the car for an afternoon drive. I suppose it must have been a similar challenge for early motorists before we had a network of petrol stations, that said a can of petrol would take up much less space than the equivalent “capacity “of battery.

For an electric car to be embraced by the general public, it will have to perform as well as their current petrol vehicle including being capable of being recharged in a comparable time.

So for it to be developed in practice, a vehicle manufacturer will have;

1) All the challenges and costs associated with the development of new a model

2) Additional costs developing new drive trains etc.

3) Huge amount of marketing to convince people that it is a viable product (not just for the beard and sandal brigade) and that Joe public will not be purchasing something that will have little or no resale value.

4) They would also have to team up with a chain of petrol stations to ensure reliable fuel cell swap / re-charge facilities.

All in all a risky punt for commercial organisations. So unless governments step in to underwrite the development costs, I suspect the only credible electric alternative will be the development of the hybrid like Toyota / Lexus have already.

[Uncle Joe]

Personally, I think that electricity is a dirty fuel. Not dirty to use, but to produce. If better technology was available there, - and I dont mean wind farms - then maybe manufacturers would think more about electric vehicles.

As far as the conspiracy theory goes, ask yourself one thing. Why cant we import the low emission vehicles that are being manufactured outside of Europe?

UJ

[pigtin]

I take your point Dave about it having to be consumer led, but if various governments are genuinely worried about global warming rather than screwing the maximum amount of tax out of us, I would think they would give the recharging or battery swap infrastructure priority.
It reminds me of the time that I worked in Holland on-and-off, back in the late 70s. A colleague over there was complaining bitterly about having spent a great deal of money converting his big Volvo to run on gas in order to save on fuel costs and in response to a government led campaign. Then the government increased the tax on LPG.

It would be very difficult to find an effective way to tax the electricity used to charge car batteries and one wonders how the government would recoup the huge losses of petrol tax revenue? It's frightening.
I must point out, I have a beard and, at the moment, I am wearing sandals. But no offence taken.
I am still sceptical about the whole issue of global warming and doubt if the removal of lead from petrol was nescessary.

[Uncle Joe]

I believe that there are about 20 000 000 vehicles in the UK at present. If every one of these was electric, then where would the electricity come from?

And how much would this affect the environment?

UJ

[pigtin]

Nuclear power might be the answer to the supply of the nescessary electricity Joe. The French seem to have no problems with it. Without doing some research I have no idea of the wattage needed for 20,000,000 vehicles, but it can't be much more than than the equivalent of one 100w lamp per household? (someone will correct me on this).
That is if you take away the huge cost in energy of drilling, transporting and refining petrol and consider the environmental impact this has? With each tanker carrying enough oil to wipe out the eco-systems over hundreds of square miles, the risks of nuclear energy do not seem quite so frightening.

Anyway someone far smarter than me must have already worked all of this out and the figures must be available somewhere on the net. I hope that anything they do will take so long it will not affect our enjoyment of the old, crude, "gas-guzzling" machinery that we all love.

[UKdave2002]

100BHP is about 73Kw or about the same as 730 100w bulbs per car, so if all 20,000,000 cars were being driven at the same time, apart from grid lock on the roads!!, we would need to generate; 1,460,000,000,000 watts of energy!! I have no idea how that equates to power stations !!.

Dave

[Uncle Joe]

As regards Power Stations, neither have I!

I have a suspicion that there are better alternatives though. Where is the motivation though to develop them, such as EU or Government grants?

Sorry to go off topic a bit!

UJ

[old gto]

[pigtin]

This is what they like to call a "conspiracy theory" GTO, but you are probably uncomfortably close to the truth. At the risk of getting slightly political. Is it possible that the western world is starting to realize that it has to choose between the huge revenue and employment advantages of oil, against being held to ransom by unreliable, unstable and increasingly hostile suppliers in the middle east.
I doubt of many UK politicians have even taken their snouts out of the trough for long enough to notice the effects of "global warming" it's just another political football to them as they jockey for position in order to appear "greener" than their rivals.
My apologies to those politicians that share our our hobby they "of course" must be decent blokes?

[pigtin]

Just found this: gives some idea of power requirements/running costs on what could be termed a less than state-of-the-art vehicle. Didn't the lead/acid battery start with Volta's pile in 1800?
http://www.goingreen.co.uk/store/content/gwiz_techspec/

[old gto]

Yes pigtin, but my tendency to lean towards "conspiracy theory" is a direct result from seeing government promises broken time and time again. And as a government employee myself, I get to see it from the inside as well. The lobbyists with the bags full of money are the ones who get what they want. The builder`s groups, the insurance groups, the energy groups, all make HUGE "contributions" to political campaigns....and their bills get signed into law.
Even the most honourable, well intentioned man, once elected to office, soon realizes he is on a run-away train, and all his campaign promises to "change the system" are impossible for him to do. All he can do is conform to the system and hang on for the ride. To do otherwise is political suicide.
I would like to see this change....because we certainly DO need research & development into electric vehicles, de-salination of ocean water, and solar energy!

[pigtin]

Depressing, isn't it ? I think I'll just keep my head down and try to plough my own little furrow, I know I can't make any difference.

[alfanut]

Fascinating thread Well that Gwiz electric car is slightly underwhelming. 45 mph, 48 miles range, though probably not both at the same time, and £500 more than a basic Vauxhall Corsa. This sort of obsolete technology can only make this type of car a joke.
But there are solutions. All we need is innovative designers and engineers to adapt and develop technology that already exists. Take the Parry People Mover (Light Rail) for example:
http://www.parrypeoplemovers.com/technology.htm
I have travelled on one of the prototypes with an LPG engine from a Ford van to 'top-up' the flywheel and it's very impressive. The flywheel might not be the ideal power source for a car, but perhaps if you substitute an electric motor and batteries you have a simpler, cleaner and more efficient vehicle than any current hybrid, and one that is more usable than the current (pun intended ) elecrtric cars

Geoff

[old gto]

A big problem with public acceptance, at least over here, is the charging time between use, and the limited range between charging.
And, there are no charging posts in parking lots. It has been proposed, and prototypes have been displayed, BUT-----
no one wants to outlay the expense to put in charging stations because there aren`t enough electric cars to justify it. And no one wants to buy an electric car that has such limited use for the price of owning one, and nowhere to charge it except at home.
Another drawback is the cost. Like any new technology, it is expensive when first introduced. Only when they are selling a million units will the price go down. It will take a long time, perhaps decades, to change the attitudes towards electric vehicles.
There was a short spot on TV a few weeks back that highlighted a sporty 2 seater with VERY impressive performance....(including smoking the tires!), but I only saw a part of it, and did not catch the name of the car, or the maker.